First Concertos

Posted by: u5227470736789439 on 28 August 2005

Dear Friends,

I thought the piano idea was quite good so here are a few concerto recomendations.

Bach:
Brandenberg Concertos. HM Linde EMI or Virgin.
Violin Concertos, in A minor and E major and Double Concerto in D minor. Oistrack or Grumiaux on DG and Philips
Keyboard Concertos. A good start will be found in the performances of JM Pires on Erato, or the complete set with Perahia on Sony

Handel:
Organ Cocertos. I recently found a set that seems to get the measure of the music. MC Alain with Paillard Chamber Orchestra, originally on decca, but now out on Boston Skyline, which is a small USA company that re-releases grand efforts that somehow have slipped beneath the horizon, often because the material is wonderful and yet not eccentric enough to have made a real media hit. Their catalogue contains some absolute gems. [Two separate CDs].

Haydn:
Trumpet Concerto in E flat. The best records (IMO) have been done by Maurice Andre, Haakon Hardenberger, and (my favourite) Ole Edvard Antonsen.

Mozart:
Clarinet Concerto: This never seems to get a bad performance, so no reason to recomend one over another!
Piano Concerto No 23 in A. There are about 12 at this level! Start here and move out! Haskil and Solomon both made splendid recordings. Perahia is among the best in the stereo era, but rare are the performances that fail.
Horn Concertos. Start with Dennis Brain's set on EMI. Slightly less charming but just as sitisfying is Alan Civil's set with the great Otto Klemperer. One can almost hear the great man smiling at his wonderful soloist. Not sure if this is currently available, but if you see it get it!

Beethoven:
The Violin Concerto is something of a gem, and yet it only ges better with further aquaintance. Try Oistrack or Josef Suk for great musical insights, though you will go a long way to find a poor performance.
Piano Concertos; Start with Number Four. Stephen Bishop is among the best and at budget price, whilst this music has attracted the attention of the great pianist of every generation. Todd, maybe you would like to recomend your favourite. Mine is Schnabel from 1933, but then that is not an obvious recomendation to a beginer!

Mendelsohnn and Bruch: [Together because of the ususal coupling].
You will find these two composers on issues of the their two greatest Violin Concertos. Again, no amount of aquaintance will ever dull the brilliance of the music.

Dvorak:
Cello concerto in B Minor.
The conventional wisdom is that Rostropovich with Karajan is THE recording. I actually profoundly disagree with this, and R recorded it several times. The best is mono with V Tallich on Supraphon, and the best after that is with Boult in Stereo on EMI. My favourite is Fournier on EMI (out on a splendid transfer of the 1947 78s on Testamente), which is terribly faithful to the miriad of markings in the score, and manges to sound as if it was also totally spontaneous. Fournier is said to have retained an affection for this performance all his life.

Brahms:
Violin Concerto:
Oistrack, Klemperer on EMI have the measure of it. Don't think that this is going to be slow or dogged. In fact it seems that Klemperer is the one with the pulse and forward drive and Oistrack the one with the poetry! From the archives, Fritz Kreisler provides another more charming and altogether different "old world" view that may acyually be musically closer in spirirt to what Brahms had in mind. The 1927 record from Berlin are a model of musical balance if not really the last word in tonal fidelity, even if the violin sounds pretty marvelous!
Piano Concertos. Start with the D Monor (No One), and get Curzon with George Szell with the LSO on Decca. It really is the best in every department.

Sibelius:
Violin COncerto. This is not as tough as it might sound and you are bound to get a nice coupling, from someone like Tchaikowsky. My favourite is Grumiaux, but Oistrack is just as fine, but the one I have is in mono (and coupled with the Bach set, swo you might kill two birds with one stone!). The best Heifetz is the one with Beecham done in London. The LPO were probably the best Orchestra in Britain in the 1930s and Beecham was not overfaced with his temperamental soloist. This is one of those once in a lifetime type performances (on EMI).

Elgar:
Violin Concerto:
Menuhin, of course, made the famous set with the composer, but if you are going to delve into the historic, then consider Albert Sammons, who recorded it two and a half years earlier with Henry Wood. (Out on Pearl) This is what Elgar rather charmingly described as a "good" performance, while if you get past the crumbly recording, what you get is one of the greatest Elgar recording - full stop! Of the moderns, avoid Heifetz. Elgar detested his reading: "The man does not know how to cry inside, without showing it on his sleeve." In the stereo era Hilary Hahn has got a good press, but I personally think the best is Alfredo Campoli on a late 1950s recording with Boult, but it only appears occasionally at super-budget on Decca.

Again I hope other will contribute further I ideas. I have refrained froma list of all myu favourite Concertos, but tried to do a starter set of recomendations, any ONE of which would make a fine start. So the absense of something only means that I think a better start may be made elsewhere. Maybe next week I'll do Starter Symphonies, and Starter Chamber Music, or even Starter String Music. Do other feel this would be useful?

Fredrik
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by Earwicker
By the way, I was listening to Schoeberg's violin concerto the other day - now THAT'S a concerto!!!

EW
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by kevj
Fredrik,

I've ordered the Civil/Klemperer copy from Amazon for myself because it's got the Mendelssohn Nocturne on it. I had the Nocturne played at my wedding and I didn't have the great man doing it....until now.

Email your address to me on <****>and I'll send you my old copy. It won't have the Nocturne, but you're more than welcome to it.


Kevin
(Edited to remove email address)
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
quote:
Originally posted by Earwicker:
I grew out of the Elgar cello concerto quite quickly. It's not one of his better compositions - a sort of dreary, wisful dirge with a splash of pomp. The man was better than that.

Pitty really, the violin concerto shows what he could achieve. I think he sold cellists short.

EW


Dear EW,

I don't think there is any doubt that we really don't agree about much! No harm in that I grant. The Cello Concerto is the one piece of Elgar which for me recaptures the spirit of greatness found in the Enigma! But it ceratinly is not a fact, but merely an opinion of yours that the Concerto is a, "...dreary, wistful dirge." That completely fails to grasp what the music was about! As for growing out of music. I would suggest that until you are an artist of Elgar's rank it would be well to phrase such comments as, "grown away from," as the loss is all yours, and you certainly have not improved to a point where you are too clever to be bothered with it. Equally you may reasonably state that you no longer like it, but that is a indeed a different proposition!!! There is indeed a big difference between an opinion and a fact, and on my own Threads at least, I shall attempt to keep the two categories distinct.

Never mind. It is not personal! fredrik
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by Basil
Dear Fredrik,

You took the words right out of my mouth!

Or right off of my keyboard, if you prefer!

Whilst on the subject of Cello Concertos, I think the two by Shostakovitch are worthy of mention.

My favoured recording is by Heinrich Schiff with Maxim Shostakovitch conducting the Bavarian Radio Symphony Orchestra.
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik H:
As for growing out of music. I would suggest that until you are an artist of Elgar's rank it would be well to phrase such comments as, "grown away from," as the loss is all yours, and you certainly have not improved to a point where you are too clever to be bothered with it. Equally you may reasonably state that you no longer like it, but that is a indeed a different proposition!!!

OK then, I no longer like it much! Winker

It's quite nice but lacks scope compared with the symphonies and the violin concerto. It's alright, but not Elgar's best work, nor one of the really great works for cello, despite its popularity.

EW
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by Earwicker
... indeed the violin sonata is probably the best of late Elgar - I was listening to Hugh Bean's recording the other day and it's damn inspiring. I tried to play it once but I wasn't very good! (And I've lost me score so can't have another go... gott sei dank!)

EW
Posted on: 21 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,

By now everyone looking at this Thread - perhaps looking in the way I hoped they would when I started it as an encouragement to people to venture into the classical field as perhaps non-initiates - will by now have gathered that don't care for the Elgar Concerto for Cello and Orchestra.

In fact I could equally have started a Thread called 'great music which for some unexplained personal reason I intensely dislike!' Then your persistence in stating your opinion might well have been useful! However I have always thought it contributed nothing, once one had stated one's dislike of a piece to repeat it, without some logical explanation. Please let more possitve opinions emerge. Equally I have always found it arid, to say the least, to debate opinion rather than fact, when that opinion is profoundly negative!

As for the violin sonata you mention... I have nothing to say... just to show absolute even handedness.

Fredrik
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Earwicker
Fredrik,

Well I sort of see what you mean, but there's not much point having a discussion forum of we don't discuss anything! And discussion is dull/impossible if we all agree!

Have the courage of your convictions and fight, man!

Best wishes,

EW
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ew,

I probably verge on the edge of being too gentle in debates, and I am put in mind of Tom Lehrer's son, "Fight Fiercely, Harvard!" in the issue of debating such nebulous issues as musical preferences. Needless to say I could have started a 'dislike' thread, and I can tell you I would find more music in the classical field that I do not enjoy than in rock, for example, because I know the classical area better! But I avoid the negative, simply because I think most people could hardly care less whether I loathe, with a vengance, this or that composer's work or even an individual work by a composer I mostly admire.

As for Elgar [who as a younger person I was a tremendous fanatic of], I have already discussed my increasingly ambivalent reaction to his output, or indeed my reaction to a great deal of the 'romantic' repertoire I once enjoyed much more. Most recently I explained this in my Thread, 'Bach NOT On The Pianforte,' and the, 'which performer would you most like to have seen...' Thread. Maybe, Bach has has the insidious effect of showing up the weakness (or perhaps the relative lack of depth) in the more overtly expressive music of later times, which is against intuition as Bach, for me, is the most expressive and straight-forwardly emotionally involving music there is! But as usual I hedge it by saying, "For me..." This is not because I don't find it so, but because I know that many would find the surface exitement of later music more immediate. I never think Bach's music has a very immediate effect, in that one invaraibly continues to find greater depths the better one knows it. Essentially it is unfathomable! A lifetime's work on the part of the great Bachians like Leonhardt or Walcha, to name just two of the greatest, shows that even the most gifted musicians never entirely found an end to the depths contained in it. They continued to develope all their performing careers. Conversely I think it is true to say that the romantics frequently produced music which once the full depth of it has been plumbed, the performers then abandoned, to find some other project. Think of Furtwangler, who revered Bruckner, but who progressively reduced the number of the symphonies he continued to perform because he felt he had searched out all there was, for him, to be found in the works, and so left them to fresh view-points of younger performers.

In one respect I have to say that there really is a fascinating element to agreement. For example, within this very Thread, I have found that HM Linde's Brandenberg Concerto recordings are not only my favourites, but also those of pe-zulu, whose view I value very much. Same for the Alan Civil Otto Klemperer Mozart Horn Concerto record, which KevinJ, a real horn player, finds his favourite. It always was mine, and you may cerify this by looking at my initial recomemdation in the very first post on this Thread. I hedge again, by sending people to the universally critically praised Brain set, and then writing affectionately about the Civil Klemperer recording! Maybe that means people who know my style learn to read it with a view to the sub-text, and if they are not sure then they can always post a direct question, which I will answer without hedging! Really till I am cornered, I try to avoid the risk of hurting people's sensibilities...

But what I am not about to do is fight for the output of Elgar. I love some it and and bemused by other parts. I used to adore it all. That is my loss, I grant, and I am terribly pleased that others find pleasure in things I find have been pressed aside in my affections, by less flamboyant, but for me more involving efforts. Perhaps I could put it thus; whereas I once would have placed the Elgar Concerto for Violin beside Beethoven's, I now find I like Bach's various Violin Concerti above all other Violin Conceri, and still find the Beethoven entirely satisfying. That I no longer find the Elgar Violin Concerto (unlike the Cello Concerto to be absolutely clear!) quite satisfying anymore, would not stop me from whole-heartedly recomending Elgar's work to anyone, given that it may provide a lfetime's joy or joy even if it for a shorter period!

Thus you will see I have convictions, and ones that run to the very core of my being, but the idea of fighting for them abhores me! I think there is something to be said for the old saying, "Each to his own..."

You will note that I never discuss what I think is wrong with a particular performer's reading of music, as it is only my opinion. I will quite happily debate whether a performance is marred by wrong technical resourses, however. That is a factual issue, and my personal opinion (negative or possitive) is not the issue, but simply questions of fact. Thus I would berate any preference for the Emperor Concerto played on a grand Harpsichord, and to a slightly lesser extent, the playing of Bach's keyboard works on a piano. In that respect it a question of a fact in terms of the instrument for which the music was conceived, though it is a keen debating point, the extent to which artists solve the problem of the impairment of the music through using wrong instruments!

All the best, and beleive me: However much I disagree in debate, I shall never hold a personal antipathy, or become personally rude,

Fredrik
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

To get this back on the rails! I have always had a soft spot for the Flute and Harp concerto of Mozart. Light fair maybe, but one cannot eat steak all the time. Recently I got a recording at 5 GBP on Classics for Pleasure, which I don't reckon much to. It is the first record I have had of it and indeed this is the first time I have heard it since 1973 when I went to a Concert in the old Malvern Festival Theatre, where the London Mozart Players under Harry Blech played a Haydn Symphony [can't remember which!], then the Concerto and after the interval the 40th in G min of Mozart. Being disappointed with the modern and far too spacious digital effort [pretty sound, but not much music I fear], from which one would never guess how finely the players are phrasing (or not?), today I ordered on Pearl the 78 transfer with Marcel Moyse as Flute soloist. I think that the Harpist was Lily Laskine, but I know this is fantastic as I studied the Concerto before the concert, as well as the G minor symphony. With the score, which I have not seen since either of the concerto. I have a good score in large print of the symphony, which is just as well as I can not really see a small score anymore. I'll report whether the old set still measures up, as we are talking thirty two years ago. Unfinished business from the first concert I ever went to. I'll tie up all the loose ends one day!

I also ordered the G major Piano Concerto of Beethoven again, with the hope thast Naxos have made a finer transfer than the ancient EMI I have of Schnabel and the LSO in 1933. Again I'll report the findings, though I have no doubt that the performance, which is extra-ordinarily poised, and beautiful is full of grand musicianship! Perormances do not get much better than this, so let's hope the new transfer is good. Worth the fiver gamble, I reckon.

Fredrik
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Fredrik H:
I also ordered the G major Piano Concerto of Beethoven again, with the hope thast Naxos have made a finer transfer than the ancient EMI I have of Schnabel and the LSO in 1933. Again I'll report the findings, though I have no doubt that the performance, which is extra-ordinarily poised, and beautiful is full of grand musicianship! Perormances do not get much better than this, so let's hope the new transfer is good. Worth the fiver gamble, I reckon.

Fredrik

Good stuff. And the G major isn't a bad place for the uninitiated to start; I suppose the 3rd, 4th and 5th would make a fine introduction to the form - and from thence to the Brahms violin concerto (miss out the Mendelssohn by all means!) and then check out the schoenberg piano concerto and maybe the Bartok No.2.

By the way, the new(ish) recording of the Beethoven G major by Brendel and sir Rattle is probably the best on disc. I'd be interested to hear what you make of Schnable though.

EW
Posted on: 22 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Ew,

I used to have the Steven Bishop recording of the Beethoven Concerti (LSO in 1 to 4, and BBCSO in the Emperor if I remember right, all under Colin Davies) and these are budget and very fine indeed, though without the inner quality to be found in the Schnabel I would think.

I am sure you are right to say that the Brahm Violin Concerto makes a fine follow on as well, though I am totally not qualified to say if the Bartok and Schoenberg make for general listening! Just because I struggle means nothing of itself. Cool

Anyway, it is all good fun if taken in the right way.

Sincere thanks for your post, Fredrik
Posted on: 25 October 2005 by kevj
For what it's worth, I played the Elgar cello several times when I was but a young lad, with several different soloists. To me it just had the feel of age about it, a bit like Saturn from the Planets. I remember being quite moved by it at the time.

I'm not so keen on it now either, but maybe that's just a sign that the interest in what age might feel like from the perspective of a young lad has been replaced somewhat by experience. Fredrik, I agree with you that the loss is all mine - I loved the piece back then.

As another, slightly off the wall recommendation, there is currently a double disk avaialble of all the Schumann concertos, played by some great soloists, for about £7.99. This includes Barenbiom in the piano, Kremer in the violin, Tortelier in the cello. The jewel of this set however is the performance of the Konzertstuck for four horns and orchestra. This piece is very rarely performed becuase of the ridiculous difficulty of the first horn part. The horn section of the Berlin Philharmonic (under Tennstedt) make it sound easy and, more importantly, musical in this rendition. The Konzertstuck is one of the best things Schumann ever wrote and I can highly commend this performance.

Link to Amazon here.
Posted on: 28 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kevin and friends,

The recording Civil made with Klemperer on EMI ariived this morning, and it is even finer than I remember it! I can see why I would part with it to encourage a beginer in the field before the old Brain set; it SO full of fun, incident and joy. The playing is beyond description as dry analysis will not convey its splendour. From the purely musical angle, it so rare and so wonderful, when one finds an accompanist of Klemperer's greatness completely at one with a soloist. No wonder though given the way Civil plays! Marvelous and not to be missed, and currently available, so I have found, on Testamant. If anyone loves this music, indulge a musical nutcase and go and buy this while it is still out. It cannot possibly fail to lift your hearts!

Sincerely, and a big thank you to Kevin for sending me his CD..., from Fredrik
Posted on: 31 October 2005 by kevj
Fredrik,

The pleasure is all mine. One of the other great things about that recording is the playing of the principal oboe, I believe Jock Sutcliffe. I just love the tone he makes - quite distinctive.

Kevin
Posted on: 31 October 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Kevin,

The whole band is wonderful. But it shows that when it is "one of your own" that players really give something extra. So thanks, from Fredrik
Posted on: 01 November 2005 by Huwge
I have always been partial to violin concertos of Walton and Hindemith (particularly Oistrakh)

Huw
Posted on: 01 November 2005 by Earwicker
quote:
Originally posted by Huwge:
I have always been partial to violin concertos of Walton and Hindemith (particularly Oistrakh)

Huw

Love the Walton, can't get on with the Hindemith. Was listening to the Schoenberg the other day - quite a beast!!

EW
Posted on: 01 November 2005 by Huwge
Funny, it's the other way around with me - in part because I think I have inherited my Dad's dislike of Schönberg. The other one I forgot to add was Szymanowski and I am growing fonder of Penderecki's cello music, but these might be difficult introductions to the concerto form.

Huw

PS - I was thinking of adding Korngold's violin concerto but that might be a bit syrupy for a starter. I think someone coming from a liking for post-bebop jazz would not struggle with the Hindemith.
Posted on: 01 November 2005 by Tam
I've only heard the Korngold once (in a concert with Alsop and the Bournemouth symphony orchestra, I can't remember who the soloist was) and wasn't overly impressed by it.

Out of interest, and I'm sure it can't be a good one for beginners, did anyone catch the Ades violin concerto at the proms? I missed it.


regards,

Tam
Posted on: 01 November 2005 by Earwicker
Hmm. More Korn than gold.

EW
Posted on: 02 November 2005 by pe-zulu
Goldkorn?
Posted on: 02 November 2005 by Wolf
I just heard the Korngold at the symphony and they related all his activities and public attiudes. Ha, movie music... but he did change movie music for the better. We had much better composers after he raised the bar. Still, the violin concerto was old school, not quite like Bernard Hermann did for Hitchcock. The second half was Mahler's 4th, wonderful performance. Alive, beautiful and enchanting.

Tho I always say if once a rocker and trying out classical, Beethoven's 5th or later, and 20th C is a good place to hang out. What rocker wouldn't like Stravinsky's Rite of Spring, tho not a concerto. I happened onto an immaculate box set of Bartok's string Quartets, wonderfully strange. Good to clean the ears out of too much Mozart.

My fave Violin Concerto tho is John Adams' Played by Gidon Kremer, wow what a wild presentation. First movement is stiking violin accents with orchestral backing (this man has listened to rock in his past), middle is etherial (to let you calm down), and ending is pulsing crescendo to the end. Wonderful stuff. Think I'll put that on rather than the tedious stuff I'm hearing now on the tuner.
Glenn
Posted on: 04 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

I picked up the first four Beethoven Piano Concertos with Schnabel, and Sargeant done in 1932/3 and 35. The Naxos transfers are very respectable, and I would think that they ought be acceptable for most people! The music making is priceless...

I also got the B Minor Mass under K Richter on Arkiv. I listened to this perforance many years ago at a cousin's house, and noted to get it. I only have JE Gardiner's recording otherwise, but used to have E Jochum's set on EMI LPs as well Klemperer's set, which is flawed to some extent. It is not so much the measured tempi as the fact the it is NOT steady! The Gloria slows down and so on, and one wonders if another few takes might not have been a good idea!

Sincerely, Fredrik
Posted on: 20 November 2005 by u5227470736789439
Dear Friends,

I have to admit that the Moyse/ Laskine recording of the Mozart Harp and Flute Concerto is fatally flawed. There is a horrendous cut in the final tutti after the last movement cadenza. It is lovely as a performance, but I would like all the notes in such a wonderful rendition. Back to the drawing board!

Fredrik