Mana Sound Frame

"Well, Simon, I also have to agree with Naheed.

You should know the history by know and I certainly have no desire to turn this thread into a Fraim V Mana debate. I just thought I should point out that Naheed is by no means alone in his evaluation."

Marco.

What exactly is your point?

That others agree with him so he must be right?

That the dozens of forum regulars who have moved to fraim after evaluation of the competition should be given less credability in their opinions than mana users?

Or is it that you always think you are right and feel the need to continually justify your purchasing descisions to all around you ad infinitum?

Marco

Sorry I missed your line on Mana going out of tune.

My soundstage went "out of tune" a couple of times when I first bought it, but once again, I actually incurred the love of a certain Mr Duerden when I stated that it had now stayed in tune for 18 months.

They can go "out of tune" but that may be down to incorrect setting up by an inexperenced customers, but inexperienced customers do exist and as such it is a fundemental disadvantage.

Regards

Mick

My Toshiba Strata TV is connected to my Toshiba SD220 DVD via a IXOS 75 Ohm 3 RCA to RCA Component Video lead. In direct comparison this gave an obviously better picture than a good quality RGB Only SCART (the one that Grahams sell -- which may even have been the QED SQART) and it was £10 cheaper as well.

Note we are talking about YUV Component Video here and not simply Component RGB via RCA or BNC rather than SCART.

Depending on Mick's model and setup he might also have Progressive Scan options available via component video inputs which are not available via RGB.

Matthew

quote:

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Depending on Mick's model and setup he might also have Progressive Scan options available via component video inputs which are not available via RGB.

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I believe Progressive Scan has only been specified for NTSC and projection so far...

Cheers,

Edo

Marco

My preferences are for 1) Fraim and 2)Hutter and everything else is sub standard to me.

You hold an alternative view, you can even call my Hutter complete and utter (pun intended) crap. That does not worry me, because, like me, your preferences are based on personal experience and you have your own sonic preference.

What annoys us both, are the plonkers (and there are loads of them ) who slag something off without ever using it themselves.

Regards

Mick

"I believe Progressive Scan has only been specified for NTSC and projection so far..."

My understanding is that the newer Toshibas (e.g. the 32ZD26P) Progressive Scan and that this is "true PAL progresive scan" (whatever that means). Either way presumably its better on Region 1 NTSC DVDs.

There does seem some confusion on the subject and some people question whether you can tell teh difference on a relatively small screen. My TV is the last generation without Progessive Scan so I haven't bothered to get to the bottom of it.

Matthew

Stallion

If you look at my first post you will see one of those little tongue in cheek faces next to my words. The purpose of this was to indicate a little bit of banter in my approach. I did not notice any "IMO" next to Naheeds comments regarding the relative merits of fraim V mana so felt free to avoid them myself.

The bottom line is if you prefer a bit of kit then for you that is the right choice - period. By the same token I think it is important to appreciate that if people make choices differnt to our own they are not by default making the wrong choices.

"However, just so long as you know that every time you feel the need to defend the Fraim; I'll be in there defending Mana"

Thats cool.

Marco

You said..."Absolutely, Matthew. I agree entirely with the above. Let's not fall out about this."

But why should you fall out with some one just because they do not like Mana.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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My TV is the last generation without Progessive Scan so I haven't bothered to get to the bottom of it.

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Matthew,

Basically, you know nothing on the subject, as usual. You rattle out facts without really knowing the full meaning.

I have a Panasonic TV which has the ability of Progressive scan through the scart, but as Edo pointed out, this is for NTSC.

The scart has to be QED with no sound connections. Not "a good scart".

You guys are really get hot. If you continue like this I will felt guilty because I have started this thread.
I was just asking is it worth to buy Mana Sound Frame. Mana, Seismic Sink, Fraim, Standesign, Neuance, Zoethecus, Atlantis, Simposium, Bright Star, Sound Org... what is the best depends only by application in what is used. I believe that heavy inert (an American styled) rack are not so good with Naim. Mana guys use Naim and Linn to test their stands. Mr Watson from Mana have CDSII. It is very important and that fact was intrigated me to try (buy) Mana, so only one more thing I need is to hear some words from someone who know (have tried). Can someone satisfied my needs?
Sorry on bad english.
Thanks,
Ozren

I've been waiting to see how this thread pans out. There are a few things I ought to mention.

1. I bought Mick's SoundFrame. I mention this in order to declare my interest! When I collected it, it was put aside ready to go, so I didn't hear how it had sounded in situ. What I did hear was both Mick's sistems, just a couple of tracks on each.

2. The SS was installed in the "secondary" sistem under his CD 3.5 which was on the top level of a Sound Org multi-tiered rack. I can't find a pic of it anywhere, but it was the model with a single deep rectangular section pillar in the centre of each side of the rack -- front and rear edges of each shelf are cantilevered. The 3.5 fed a 32.5 (red light, black toggles) with the oldest HiCap I've ever seen (red light, small knob) and a post-1989 250. The SBLs are as close to the wall as the skirting will allow.

I wasn't listening for any particular "effect", whether good or bad, but what I heard was what I expected to hear given the components in use and the fact that there was nothing visually evident which made me think "blimey that's a no-no". It just sounded like a well sorted Naim sistem to me. Explicit without being harsh, well timed and pitched -- just fine. I think it would have astonished anyone who'd bought a new 102 or above during the last couple of years, without hearing any of the previous generation of preamps.

The point is, the SS completely failed to destroy the music. I admit to being surprised at this, and it may be that without it, I would have either craved it's replacement or been even more impressed -- I don't know. All I'm saying is that it sounded fine to me, but of course I'm not used to that particular sistem, so my opinion may not be particularly useful.

3. Mick's "primary" sistem is a lots and lots of fun, as IMHO it should be for the money. To me and what passes for my brain, the evidence is piling up that Hutter does something very nice with Naim boxes. I think I can say that if I couldn't have Mana, I'd rather have Hutter than Fraim. I think Mick would be pushed to fit two stacks of Fraim in the alloted space in fact, due to its enormous width. Whenever I've heard a CDS2, it has always pleased me what can be achieved with CD, and this time was no different until a record went on. IMHO the Garrard is a winner. It's streets ahead of any CD player. The partnership of a good record player, Naim amps and Briks seems to be one made in heaven. Having said that, I did have an urge to stick a load of Mana under the Garrard, as personally I think it would be astonishing, but there you go. For IIRC similar money to a top-spec Project, the Garrard takes a lot of beating.

4. Oh yes. The SoundFrame went into the back of my van with lots of bubble-wrap, came out 90 mins later and the upward spikes/glass were still in tune, and none of the nuts were over-tightened. The lower spikes were not level (leaning backward a bit), but this was consistent with it sitting on a rack at the edge of a room (carpet grip rods, etc., often make racks lean slightly forward). Lateral level was good. I mention this so that there is no question of Mick not having set the thing up properly.

That's it -- thanks to Mick for a fun visit!

Best;

Mark

(an imperfect
forum environment is
better than none)

[This message was edited by Mark Ellis-Jones on THURSDAY 28 November 2002 at 21:02.]

<adopts best will in world to avoid being very rude>

"The scart has to be QED with no sound connections. Not "a good scart"."

I shall repeat what I said previously -- I have specifically compared high quality RGB only "no sound" [sic] SCARTs (quite possibly the exact same QED SQART you are using) *directly* with a high quality YUV component video lead and the latter is very obviously better. This is not in any way a controversial claim and most informed sources will tell you exactly the same. i.e. the prefered order is Component YUV video, RGB/SCART, S-VHS, Composite, RF.

Matthew

I have stated recently that Seismic Sinks must be killing the groove and tune because they belong to the damping/absorbtion school of isolation rather than that of rapid dissipation of energy via the spike.

My own experiences with Sorbathane and Vibrapods had formed the basis of my above theory.

However, I went for a second visit to Big Tone's place to hear his system earlier his week.

The system has been modified (can't really say how) since my first visit (and indeed Mick only heard it as it was the first time I went there) when it was overly fussy about the quality of recordings, and there was a certain "splash" character in the treble, and occasionally it couldn't hold the tune.

Now, the treble "splash" has gone, it grooves and times like a bastard, holds the tune as well as any so-called FE system I've heard, it was fun to listen to with just about anything we loaded into the Wadia's drawer, and to boot it has an organic and naturally flowing presentation which shouldn't be possible from CD.

Oh, and I forgot the drive and articulation in the bass even at very low frequencies.

He uses mains filters, conditioners, and other FE no-no's as well as those Seismic Sinks...

Mick,

I strongly advise you not to go back there, cos if you do, you may think about changing your system.

Regards,

Steve.

It's just a pleasure to hear music as it was intended to be heard.

PS: I have reported my findings on Big Tone's system because I knew he wouldn't mind my doing so. I have never commented publicly on anyone's home system without their express permission. Some of the Mana guys got a bit touchy at the prospect, and suggested to the effect that I was perhaps rising above my station, so to speak, by so doing.

Anality often goes with the territory in this regard...

[This message was edited by Steven Toy on FRIDAY 29 November 2002 at 05:23.]

Steve

I think we all need to keep an open mind on kit as well as racks and to use your expression, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

The s/sink table actually works better with Naim kit than with a Mana Soundstage. That of course is just my opinion, but in my house, my opinion counts.

Oh and if you ever come to hear my system, I would expect you to give an honest appraisal of how you found it. I am not that defensive that I want to give permission before knowing what you are going to say.

Mark EJ Thanks for the appraisal, I think it gave a fairly accurate picture of how I view the systems as well. Glad you enjoyed the visit and hope the Soundstage is floating your boat.

I must say, it is useful moving out of the Naim forum now and then, I have discovered that the s/sink works and I am more convinced than ever before that Naim suits me.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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I shall repeat what I said previously -- I have specifically compared high quality RGB only "no sound" [sic] SCARTs (quite possibly the exact same QED SQART you are using) *directly* with a high quality YUV component video lead and the latter is very obviously better. This is not in any way a controversial claim and most informed sources will tell you exactly the same. i.e. the prefered order is Component YUV video, RGB/SCART, S-VHS, Composite, RF.

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This is definitely the preferred order for most displays. Whatever DVD player and whatever display, comparing all these connections like you did, is the only way. I do need to repeat the Loewe example, because it shows that surprising results will be found. Loewe states:
"During the analog age, an RGB signal was better because it had a larger bandwidth. In the digital age on the other hand, this is converted into a luminance/chrominance signal first, because the entire technology is designed around this type of signal. This applies to Loewe chassis with 100 Hz technology, both Digital 100 and Full Digital 100. So, an extra signal processing is being performed when RGB is fed. SVHS is hence better, as this is already a luminance/chrominance signal!"

Cheers,

Edo

quote:

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The s/sink table actually works better with Naim kit than with a Mana Soundstage

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I'm sure you found the latter configuration somewhat less good at reproducing music.

Alex

Alex

Very good.

Ok just for you, A s/sink under a CD3.5 sounds infinitely better than Mana under a CD3.5.

Regards

Mick

quote:

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Originally posted by Edo Engel:

quote:

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Depending on Mick's model and setup he might also have Progressive Scan options available via component video inputs which are not available via RGB.

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I believe Progressive Scan has only been specified for NTSC and projection so far...

Cheers,

Edo

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EDO, my good man this is slightly misleading as Arcam has been able to process 625 PAL signal in progressive scan mode as well, also I feel Mick would gain great benefits by switching to componant Y+G+B to further enhance the already great picture the Toshiba has, I would also like to add, that I too use Townsend sinks to great effect, I too used mana under my CDS2, until a quite starkly revealing demosration was heard by changing over the mana for the Townsend siemic sink, and as Mick has stated, a major improvement was heard by all in the room. I also use one under my NAP 500, it too has a very positive effect on the sound, to which I am more than happy with so please while debating this subject please do try them before engauging in idle speculation I have further enhanced my systems potential by replacing the CD player, but that is they say is another story.


Kind Regards David

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

I think Loewe are talking about S-VHS being superior to RGB but the implicit assumption is that you do not have a YUV option which is still relatively rare. This is worth saying as its non-obvious and most people would put Component RGB ahead of S-VHS because of the increased bandwidth.

However, since DVDs are recorded natively in YPrPb (aka YUV) which is (I think) a higher bandwidth version of S-VHS's Y/C (specifically the C is Pr + Pb) then it would seem that YUV is always better than S-VHS if one has it. Certainly when Loewe say "because the entire technology is designed around this type of signal" they are almost certainly talking about YPrPb which is DVDs native format. I also note that just about all their current TVs have YUV inputs which wouldn't make any sense if S-VHS were better since there isn't a a video device in the world that has YUV but not S-VHS.

At the very least one assumes that getting native YPrPb out of your DVD player is the best option as Loewe will probably be the best people to do whatever conversion is required at the highest standard for their TVs to work at their best.

Matthew

Next time I go for a mini-break in Swindon I'll bring my StrataBase platform. I feel a need to be nerdy. May I pop in for Earl Grey and cucumber sandwiches?

Alex

Next time I go for a mini-break in Swindon I'll bring my StrataBase platform. I feel a need to be nerdy. May I pop in for Earl Grey and cucumber sandwiches? Those shotguns are screwed to the wall aren't they?

Alex

"May I pop in for Earl Grey and cucumber sandwiches?"

Leave out the Earl Grey or they get too soggy.

quote:

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Originally posted by RichardN:
Are you Tony's (from the Hifi choice forum) brother?

Just that you've said some things that tie in with the description of his brother's hifi...

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Richard,

You are quite correct in you observation sir although I wish to point out some of his views and the way of communicating those views are not held by meself I am the elder brother David, but we both do have a Brother in law Martain (he of large wallet ) who has the rather 'Jump out of your seat system' that I nor my Brother Tony quite like we far perfer our own systems to his mere piffing 'Earthquake inducer' But enough banter, all jesting aside, it is worth the effort to try out the Townshend (correct spelling) for yourselves before slating the percieved effect it is surposed to have, I have changed purely because it offers (ME) far enhaced system dynamics and clarity, over the pervious isolation equipment that was used, in my humble opinion.

Kind Regards David

Well Balanced Beings Promote Harmony In Music and Soul

Alex

You may come and nibble my sandwiches anytime.

Regards

Mick