Mac or PC - is there any difference as a digital source?

They should be - Drivers are different though and the Mac is 'easier' to set up. Worth having a read through this section as this has come up quite a few times.

Guide here

Cheers

James

Occean, there really is no right answer. Depends upon what you want to do in terms of quality playback.

If you have an external NAS then using SB+/Linn solution you can ethernet connect to your NAS and are bi-passing the computer which would be used only for music management--so PC or MAC is irrelevant in this scenario.

For a really inexpensive solution I like Sonos over SB, but it doesn't matter--for a few hundred bucks you can start to experiment and have access to a tremendous amount of stuff--internet radio, rhapsody subscription, artist channels, your music on the NAS. The only issue here is the ripping software and settings to get the best results. The majority use EAC, but a couple of others are mentioned on the forum and there is a wealth from PC Stockton and Ferenc on these issues and PC has given all of his settings to use (you need a PC not a MAC). I prefer Wave Lab Pro (again PC based)

However, if you want to play dirctly from your computer or from your NAS with playback software on the computer and then to your system it gets more complicated wrt playback software, connections AES/EBU, USB, firewire, ASIO drivers). Just read through the last 1-2 pages on DA threads and you will have plenty of info to get you going with relatively small outlay-- firewire/TC K8, etc... The worst playback is directly from the PC or MAC with toslink, etc.. directly to your SB etc...

As far as a specific DAC is concerned we will not get started on that as you can read here on the forum DA threads. While I have not heard the Linn DS boxes--many have commented that the Sneaky DS for $2K USD is a fun way to get started and not terribly expensive, but user interface is poor.

If I hadn't gone the way I did in my system I'd have used the Wave lab (essentials)/TC K8/Sonos (or SB if you prefer). It's fun, the quality is very listenable (not audiophile) and for $700 a good start.

I have spent some time configuring a decent music server. I chose the PC route plus DAC (Lavry DA10).

1. Firstly you have to make sure you avoid windows processing using ASIO drivers or similar. This is easy to do through software as Mediamonkey or Foobar, which are some of the most prefered alternatives. This way you have bit perfect streaming. Both PC and Mac can do it.

2. The quality of the digital streaming is also important. Jitter and other flaws in the signal quality can be reduced using computer sound devices (internal or external). For example, Lynx and RME sound cards are suppose to be very good. These devices transform the data bits in a digital audio signal.

3. DAC seems to be the most determinant part of the chain. In my case, this is even more significant as the Lavry has been reported to be in general relatively insensitive to the transport used.

4. It is also important to choose among possible connections (Ethernet, Firewire, USB, SPDIF, Optical and AES/EBU). So far I have used SPDIF and optical. Optical is interference proof. SPDIF is a very weak electrical signal and it is very sensitive to EMI and RFI pollution resulting in frequent sound dropouts or glitches because of other electrical gear or poor mains installation (I suffer this). AES/EBU is in theory a better way of streaming, with a stronger signal and best protocol for sending audio bits.

5. Digital cables. I upgraded to an expensive dig. coax. cable resulting in the poorest vfm upgrade I have made until now. Again, this can be different with other DAC more sensitive to transport used. Nonetheless my feeling is digital cables are not as important as analogue ones.

6. Ripping. In case you need it, you can obtain excellent results with quality drives as those made by Plextor or others computer companies. Dedicated pro software or even a free program as Exact Audio Copy can make perfect rippings. Plextor even use a master copying technology which claims to make better sounding copies than original cd.

7. Convenience. Both PC and Mac are very good in this aspect. I can control my music server in any PC with a remote virtual desktop software through Internet or with a remote (IMON device) through my tv.

8. PC offers more flexibility to choose components. Maybe it is no very relevant for sound quality but a hifi looking case and low noise PSU and Hard drives are highly desirable.

In this forum you will find more professional advice than mine, but from a user point of view I think you can build a superb reference music server based on a PC/Mac, IMO using a computer is not a bottleneck at all, performance mainly depends on the sound device/card and DAC chosen.

I am trying to get the best of my Lavry DA10, I have changed a M-audio 192 audiophile sound card for a Lynx AES but I still haven't tested it because I have ordered a custom AES digital cable. Based of other's Lavry users I don't expect a great upgrade but I hope sound dropouts will finish at least. Nonetheless, for less than 2000 eur (standard PC -400- Lynx AES card -500- Lavry DAC -800- and cables -100-) I can't think of a better VFM alternative.

Hope it helps,

I guess it just won't stop.

Goldfinch in my post I purposely left out DAC names to avoid once again turning a forum members question into another Lavry Love-Fest referendum.

Now you've taken a relatively inexpensive DAC and converted it into a moderately expensive kit with the addition of youe AES/EBU card etc.. and added another $1500 bucks to the equation. From what Jon Honeywell heard for less money and complicating factors you could get better performance and versatility from the Squeeky DS than your Lavry Kit.

Furthermore do we once again have to rehash the varied opinions on the forum regarding the Lavry performance. Every opportunity to mention the Lavry on any thread is taken up by you guys.

By the way I can think of several different options that offer a more musically satifying performance than the standard Lavry setup for less money and much better VFM(Sonos for one comes to mind).

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
I guess it just won't stop.

Goldfinch in my post I purposely left out DAC names to avoid once again turning a forum members question into another Lavry Love-Fest referendum.

Now you've taken a relatively inexpensive DAC and converted it into a moderately expensive kit with the addition of youe AES/EBU card etc.. and added another $1500 bucks to the equation. From what Jon Honeywell heard for less money and complicating factors you could get better performance and versatility from the Squeeky DS than your Lavry Kit.

Furthermore do we once again have to rehash the varied opinions on the forum regarding the Lavry performance. Every opportunity to mention the Lavry on any thread is taken up by you guys.

By the way I can think of several different options that offer a more musically satifying performance than the standard Lavry setup for less money and much better VFM(Sonos for one comes to mind).

I didn't realise my DAC has become a taboo, at least up to the point of being offensive just to name it.

I just mention what I have, that's all, not love
fest referendum at all.

I can understand there is not consensus about its performance and if because of that every new reference to it is interpreted as a vote I don't mind omitting it in this kind of threads.
Nonetheless, as there are some Naimees using it I hope you wouldn't mind if we can still interchange experiences about it in specific threads. I would like to do the same with this DAC or other gear I have, otherwise this community would loose credit and interest to me.

Nothing wrong with using a DAC if that's what rings your bell. I think a MAC is probably better out the box but there's more in the way of playback programs and sound cards/intefaces for better dig out with PC.

Goldfinch, that fine. There has been a huge amount of interchange on the Lavry experience and as you said many disagree with the purported findings. But does every thread with a DAC mentioned have to get the Lavry comments?

However, where I really have the problem here based on my experience with the Lavry is now telling someone that the Lavry DA-10 plus all the extras you've now added on which make the total package some where between $2500-3000USD something that "You can't think of a better VFM alternative." While that is obviously your impression, I am sorry , but I can't let that comment go without responding because I can think of, as I said above, other ways of spending far less money and getting more VFM. Even without using the Firewire/K8 just plugging a Sonos/SB into a normal Naim pre-amp your talking about $400 and $700 if you add the other parts and this outperforms the DA10. Futhermore look at the Sneeky DS for I believe under $2K with the sale you get ethernet connectivity for the NAS and access to internet radio etc... Looking at it either of these alternatives gives you alot more versatility and functionality and IMO VFM for less money than either Lavry alternative (standard or advanced).

quote:

I guess it just won't stop.

Nope cause you wont let it go. Why not let the thread cover the PC setup and leave the Lavry dissing - i think we know your views on that already.

Can we get back on topic ?

James

quote:

Even without using the Firewire/K8 just plugging a Sonos/SB into a normal Naim pre-amp your talking about $400 and $700

gary 1..what preamp from naim do you use ?

quote:

Originally posted by gary1:
Goldfinch, that fine. There has been a huge amount of interchange on the Lavry experience and as you said many disagree with the purported findings. But does every thread with a DAC mentioned have to get the Lavry comments?

However, where I really have the problem here based on my experience with the Lavry is now telling someone that the Lavry DA-10 plus all the extras you've now added on which make the total package some where between $2500-3000USD something that "You can't think of a better VFM alternative." While that is obviously your impression, I am sorry , but I can't let that comment go without responding because I can think of, as I said above, other ways of spending far less money and getting more VFM. Even without using the Firewire/K8 just plugging a Sonos/SB into a normal Naim pre-amp your talking about $400 and $700 if you add the other parts and this outperforms the DA10. Futhermore look at the Sneeky DS for I believe under $2K with the sale you get ethernet connectivity for the NAS and access to internet radio etc... Looking at it either of these alternatives gives you alot more versatility and functionality and IMO VFM for less money than either Lavry alternative (standard or advanced).

gary1, I can't think about a better vfm alternative because IMO Lavry's performance is similar to higher price CDPs, which are the only references I can compare to. So I don't care about other streaming devices which I haven't demoed yet. If you think a Sonos/SB in analogue outperforms the DA10 is ok but as I haven' listened to them I can't say anything but they have to be then absolute bargains.
I would like to demo Naim HDX because this is the only alternative I think it can be a reference, but at the moment I still haven't finished my "exploring trip" with computers servers and pro dacs which I feel have a lot fun to offer yet.

The 'computer audiophile' site is interesting, the administrator there uses a couple of Mac based systems with a berkeley Audio Design dac, one an Apple Pro with lynx 16aes and the other a macbook pro with a firewire interface,H.

Allen,
sure I will share my impressions, I have just ordered a Belden 110 ohm digital cable and I don't know how much time it will take to arrive.

One curious thing I have just discovered is that contrary to what is commonly assumed, many soundcards are not bit perfect regardless ASIO drivers and they actually stream a signal containing some noise level (dither). This is not jitter, is other signal flaw which can compromise DAC performance. This Lynx card is supposed to stream really bit perfect.
I don't expect any benefit in crystal mode as the Lavry is very insensitive regardless the signal input with this proprietary pll. I bet the Lynx's qualities will be shown in the narrow mode.

Regards and enjoy all streamers (Lavry ones and not Lavry ones)!

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
The 'computer audiophile' site is interesting, the administrator there uses a couple of Mac based systems with a berkeley Audio Design dac, one an Apple Pro with lynx 16aes and the other a macbook pro with a firewire interface,H.

DHT, it is a very informative site with frequent reviews. His top reference DAC is really a strange product, It is hardly distributed, even in its country (USA). The Weiss similarly priced DAC is more known.

Gold finch, yes just a handful of US distributors on their site, it looks to have a very fine pedigree though, Pacific Microsonic dacs are still highly regarded I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
Gold finch, yes just a handful of US distributors on their site, it looks to have a very fine pedigree though, Pacific Microsonic dacs are still highly regarded I believe.

I've also heard good things about it. I think about $5k but I never heard it. It's upsampling so I'm wary on 44k material but those guys know more than me so a listen is what it will take to know. Their old 20 bit DAC in a Sonic Frontiers wasn't bad at all.

The 555 still uses one of their old chips I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
The 555 still uses one of their old chips I believe.

Naim has current BB 24bit capable DACs in those pieces I'm aware of. Never used PM DACs but has used their filter chip. Could be in the 555 as they do tend to stash bits they like. I really don't know. Sure couldn't be a new PM chip.

Its a BB 1704 in the 555.

Thanks for the responses; sorry I did intend to spark another Lavry discussion.

I didn’t realise that using a PC was much more difficult than choosing a soundcard, dac & connection type – I wasn’t aware of the ASIO issues, thanks goldfitch for bringing that to my attention. The main reason I deviated from the SB+/Linn DS option was after being very impressed using itunes with an iphone as the remote and already owning a decent HTPC, but it appears that does not support ASIO. Bloody shame as my NAS has an integrated itunes server too – the whole thing would work perfectly, NAS itunes server > HTPC > itunes > Iphone remote > DAC to HIFI.

Do macs suffer from this ASIO compatibility problem too? (with itunes)

Gary1, fully agree with you about the Linn DS interface – such a shame as the hardware seem spot on – I would go with the Majik rather than the Sneaky (though I would will demo to justify...). Would also be interested in hearing a SB/SONOS with a DAC, though I guess this would be a lot harder to organise. I too like the SONOS systems, especially as they do not rely on sever software, though my NAS is slimserver compatible – I have to rely on 3rd part coders to provide update, which is a situation I am not comfortable with.

I believe yu do not need to bypass the OS's sound kernel with a MAC so you don't need an ASIO patch, macs seem to offer a much simpler solution.

Occean, all is not lost you have a few reasonable options.

How many CD's have you ripped from itunes into your NAS?

I have an ipod, but do not use it for my Sonos system, everything was ripped into wav format to my Windows home server for that. Then you get the ethernet connectivity, Sonos UI on your PC, rhapsody, and internet radio etc... One of the reasons I do not like having everything wrapped up in Apple. Great way to start and while it's annoying to rip again it's free other than your time. Some drawbacks with album art, but there are some workarounds or you might not care.

Or if you get Sonos/SB and a rhapsody subscription ($12/month)chances are the majority of your CDs will be there and just play from rhapsody and ignore itunes. I mean the Sonos PC UI is free and you hook Sonos up to your Naim pre-amp. If you want to spend a little more then get the handcontroller. Other option would be to buy one of those Wadia ipod boxes, but it only plays what's on your ipod not your NAS, so I think limited functionality.

Personally, I love using rhapsody and for the money it's a good deal. Downloading $1/song from itunes adds up. I find that I use rhapsody about 95% of the time when my sonos is playing and rarely if ever use the CDs I've ripped. So much more interesting things to listen to than the limitations imposed by your own collection. Critcal listening is different.

So enjoy you ipod/itouch for what it's worth and consider the other options.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
I believe yu do not need to bypass the OS's sound kernel with a MAC so you don't need an ASIO patch, macs seem to offer a much simpler solution.

Your previous reference would differ.


Member DHT
Posted Fri 24 October 2008 19:10

The 'computer audiophile' site is interesting, the administrator there uses a couple of Mac based systems with a berkeley Audio Design dac, one an Apple Pro with lynx 16aes and the other a macbook pro with a firewire interface,H.

How? I believe that using a PC it is best to bypass the OS , with a MAC you don't have to is that not correct.

quote:

Originally posted by DHT:
How? I believe that using a PC it is best to bypass the OS , with a MAC you don't have to is that not correct.

Sorry, I misread your post. It seems in this case that OSX is still in their loop. I can see how a better sound card with better clocking may be the ticket with the freindly ITunes interface. Different dig cables are all bit perfect at their outputs but still make a difference. There's more to dig streams than bit perfect or even jitter and I personally still feel that it's best to bypass the OSX mixer even though I think that it's clearly much better than the Windows K mixer when configured optimumly. Regardless of that opinion and I claim no more, what's not to like about MAC/ITunes in use with 16 bit files. Apple has done a great job regarding user freindliness in every part of the distribution setup and paid enough attention to the mixer to get a result that with an improved dig interface can still works great for many in a stand alone setup.

By the way. I think we'd get on great in person. Guys like us would have a great time together with some gear around. Forums don't do many exchanges justice. Munch, that goes for you too.