Naim HDX
Posted by: Dejan on 26 April 2008
I just came back from munchen hi End show where I had the opptunity to listen to Naim HDX.
The system that it was playing in: Supernait + Naim SL2 + two naim subs.
Naim HDX impressed me very much. I must admit that I was a bit sceptical concerning all this HD thing, but it plays on a really high level. I had a feeling that the quality of source reproduction was among the best Naim cd players (whatever that exactly means - I have CD5x-FC2x and it seems that this HDX is a better player). Really - very impressive sound.
Great product as well with a lot of useful features. It made me start thinking ....
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by rupert bear
First people said it was better than a CDX2, now they're saying it's not as good, though you've helpfully put it above a CD5x/FC2x.
What I don't get is the Linn comparison. If Linn's adherents are claiming that a HDD/streamer device (their DS boxes) massively outperforms CD replay, why can't Naim do the same trick?
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by Dejan
Please have in mind that I am not making any definitive statements. I am talking about "feeling" ... I cannot do more than that because for a valid statement it would be necessary to make a direct comparison - which I didn't. I guess we will have to wait for some of our old friends from HiFi mags to do that ...
Posted on: 26 April 2008 by David Dever
quote:
What I don't get is the Linn comparison. If Linn's adherents are claiming that a HDD/streamer device (their DS boxes) massively outperforms CD replay, why can't Naim do the same trick?
Outperforms
their CD replay (currently implemented with non-CD drives)–the devil is in the details.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by thesherrif
There's an interesting point buried in this, and in other threads, that needs to be nailed down. The HDX is NOT going to sound like anything at all, it chucks out digits. And it's not going to matter at all whether the HDD box is Naim, Linn, or a laptop running itunes....... the digital output will be the same.
In the setup mentioned above by Dejan it's the supernait that makes the music via its DAC, and thus people are listening to the DAC /amp/ speaker combination. I would suggest that the DAC is the critical component here, as it is in cd players. Too many cd players have rubbish jittery DACs inside them, and in the new world they won't be able to compete with better and cheaper DACs that are either stand alone or buried in an amp like the supernait.
"But what about the top end cd players?", I keep hearing. Well when you think about it the BEST that a cd player can achieve is to MATCH a digital based system !!! The cd is rapidly becoming a completely redundant link in the music delivery chain, and thus the end of the cd player is nigh, apart from in the homes of the usual die hards !
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by naken janne
I think what Linn has acheived lately is rather remarkable. Their best conventional CD player Ackurarate CD (cost 10 000 usd in Sweden) is now outperformed in sound quality by their cheapest server player Sneaky DS. The cost of the Sneaky DS is 2 000 usd and that also includes an integrated amplifier of fairly good quality! So the step forward in quality/price is absolutely enormous.
One should also notice though, that when comparing the two, there are additional costs of a NAS when going for the DS players. That is of course not needed when buying a Naim HDX or a regular CD player.
quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
What I don't get is the Linn comparison. If Linn's adherents are claiming that a HDD/streamer device (their DS boxes) massively outperforms CD replay, why can't Naim do the same trick?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
"But what about the top end cd players?", I keep hearing. Well when you think about it the BEST that a cd player can achieve is to MATCH a digital based system !
Ha! Ha! Ha! You are joking aren't you, or were you hearing these voices in your head?
I have thought about it, & I assume 'digital based system' = server.
I have used my ears, & the best that a cd player (CD555) can achieve is to urinate on a digital based system from such a great height it seems cruel to talk about it.
quote:
The cd is rapidly becoming a completely redundant link in the music delivery chain, and thus the end of the cd player is nigh, apart from in the homes of the usual die hards !
Please stop; my sides are hurting!
If that's not you joking, perhaps it's wishful thinking?
The Nielsen SoundScan volume figures for 2007 record sales in the USA were 449.2 million for CD Albums, whereas only a relatively meagre 50 million digital (download) albums.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Lark
555
CD is a compromised medium that Naim rejected for a good few years until they could make it acceptable in the form of the CDS. Progress and research has yielded what is IMO the greatest digital source ever, your Naimsake the 555. I am sure you agree with me so far.
However HD by its very nature will eventually yield a player better or equal to your 555. It is the laws of physics and electrical engineering. Plenty of posts on here are explaining why.
The 555 is no question the 'Daddy of Digital' now but will be kicked off the top far sooner than you are willing to accept. It will however not stop your 555 sounding any different or fantastic.
Cheers
ps 555 is still eclipsed by a well sorted TT
Go hear a SC Superline!!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Chris Kelly
quote:
apart from in the homes of the usual die hards !
That'll be me then.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by Lark:
CD is a compromised medium that Naim rejected for a good few years until they could make it acceptable in the form of the CDS.
All recording formats are compromised; IME currently servers more so than others.
quote:
I am sure you agree with me so far.
That's a no!
quote:
However HD by its very nature will eventually yield a player better or equal to your 555.
It is the laws of physics and electrical engineering.
Plenty of posts on here are explaining why.
Certainly HD has the potential but how long this will take, if it ever does, is another matter.
There are so many issues to consider in achieving this; making HD as quick, easy & reliable to use as CD, copyright protection & persuading record labels to release "master" sample rate downloads for a start.
I won't be holding my breath while I wait!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Lark
555
You didn't agree with my opening paragraph, strange what would you say then is the greatest digital source?
I am glad you agree HD has the potential, you are obviously not as blinkered as some of your earlier posts suggest. I think the time is soon, the HDX is obviously a mid (CDX) player, we should then see a CDS, CD55 and entry model in the HD line up.
The very fact no transport is needed is enough in theory to suggest a rosy future for HD.
Do not confuse the problems with streaming, downloading, with HD based full rips and their sonic promise.
Cheers
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Allan Probin
quote:
Originally posted by 555:
I have used my ears, & the best that a cd player (CD555) can achieve is to urinate on a digital based system from such a great height it seems cruel to talk about it.
I'm not sure which 'digital based system' you listened to but I don't think things are quite as black and white as you are stating here. Maybe *to your ears* you preferred the CD555 but equally there will be others who prefer the Klimax DS for example.
The German hifi mag Stereoplay rated the CD555 as their digital reference source component (so maybe they are on the right wavelength) but having recently reviewed the Klimax DS have had to change their minds, even for redbook CD. Go to the Linn website for a full reprint of the review. Ok, yada yada, it's a hifi mag but I do think you are overstating your case somewhat.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by thesherrif
Hmmmmm, cd players, let's see now.
1) music in digital form ( ones and nones )
2)transfer data to master compact disc with no loss whatsoever
3) 1's and 0's now appear as pits and lands on the cd photoresist layer
4) metal stamper formed by electroplatng technique
5) replica cds made from the metal stamper using hot plastic in contact with metal stamper
6) cover pits and lands with layer of aluminium, then a layer of lacqer
7) stick the cd in a case and put in the shops
8) buy the cd, take it home, remove from box and load into cd player.
9) cd player spins with fantastic accuracy and a perfect laser read the pits and lands perfectly every time and converts pit and lands back to 1's and 0's........... in real time !
10) Totally jitter free DAC inside cd player converts 1's and 0's to analogue signal to send to amplifier.
Ok, now lets get rid of steps (2) to (10) and just stream the digits via software controlled buffers to a DAC and thence to amplifier (or both ina supernait.
Hmmmmmm !
Now I'm supposed to believe the laws of physics don't apply to music, and that INSERTING steps (2) to (10) is going to IMPROVE the sound?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
All IMHO of course chaps!
Greatest digital source would depend on the criteria.
Sorry for any confusion with problems re: streaming/downloading & HD based full rips - my concern is near non-availability of music in a high sample rate format.
HiFi Mags Alan!
Back to Police Academy for you thesheriff; in your investigation you've forgotten all the processes data goes through on its journey to your drive.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by thesherrif
data is data, it doesn't degrade !
Go to Jail
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by naim_nymph
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Dejan
I believe that the main problem with HD Players, Music servers, etc. was the fact that they were not build by HiFi companies but mainly by the companies with the computer back ground. The difference is that HiFi companies are looking for a good sound - the others are trying to make these units simply to work correctly.
Nowadays the situation obviously changed and the firms like Naim, Linn and the others started to invest in development of sources which use data from the files on HDs and not from CDs. That fact has some obvious advantages - the most important is avoiding jitter produced by mechanical spinning of cds in transports.
There is though one thing that is not really perfect - how to transfer music to this HDD player ? I know that you can put CD in this unit and copy it or that you can download music and use one of USBs for data transfer - but what about reading the cover of LP/CD ? Who is playing on the record ? Where and when the music has been recorded ? All these small things that I like to read when I listen to the CD for the first time .... Everything is getting so sterile. Or maybe I am getting to old ...
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by rupert bear:
First people said it was better than a CDX2, now they're saying it's not as good, though you've helpfully put it above a CD5x/FC2x.
What I don't get is the Linn comparison. If Linn's adherents are claiming that a HDD/streamer device (their DS boxes) massively outperforms CD replay, why can't Naim do the same trick?
Thats simple, Linn CD players are no match for the Naim equivolents, so making an HDD player to outperform a Linn CD spinner would a relatively simple task.
Not so for Naim with the likes of the CDX2, CDS3 and CD555, which are all world class.
Cheers
Jez
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
data is data, it doesn't degrade !
Stop it or I'm going to wee myself!
Are you telling me you've never experianced currupted data Private?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by thesherrif:
Hmmmmm, cd players, let's see now.
1) music in digital form ( ones and nones )
2)transfer data to master compact disc with no loss whatsoever
3) 1's and 0's now appear as pits and lands on the cd photoresist layer
4) metal stamper formed by electroplatng technique
5) replica cds made from the metal stamper using hot plastic in contact with metal stamper
6) cover pits and lands with layer of aluminium, then a layer of lacqer
7) stick the cd in a case and put in the shops
8) buy the cd, take it home, remove from box and load into cd player.
9) cd player spins with fantastic accuracy and a perfect laser read the pits and lands perfectly every time and converts pit and lands back to 1's and 0's........... in real time !
10) Totally jitter free DAC inside cd player converts 1's and 0's to analogue signal to send to amplifier.
Ok, now lets get rid of steps (2) to (10) and just stream the digits via software controlled buffers to a DAC and thence to amplifier (or both ina supernait.
Hmmmmmm !
Now I'm supposed to believe the laws of physics don't apply to music, and that INSERTING steps (2) to (10) is going to IMPROVE the sound?
Mmmm I've got a better idea, why not scrap steps 1-10 entirely and take the original waveform as recorded, transfer it to a black piece of plastic, which will represent the continuous waveform from start to finish without the need to break it up and reassemble it and find a way to replay it...........gotta be better hasn't it!?!?
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by thesherrif
YEP !!!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by 555
quote:
Originally posted by cafez27:
Mmmm I've got a better idea, why not ... take the original waveform as recorded, transfer it to a black piece of plastic, which will represent the continuous waveform from start to finish without the need to break it up and reassemble it and find a way to replay it...........gotta be better hasn't it!?!?
Nah! Vinyl died a death due to CD back in the 1980s!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by Stephen Tate
Not being funny here, but why did naim bring out a top cd player at a time when they were probably developing the HDX and so were the masses alike.
They must know something we don't, don't ya kinda think?
Steve
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by Dejan:
but what about reading the cover of LP/CD ? Who is playing on the record ? Where and when the music has been recorded ? All these small things that I like to read when I listen to the CD for the first time .... Everything is getting so sterile. Or maybe I am getting to old ...
You are not getting old and yes everything is getting sterile!!!
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen Tate:
Not being funny here, but why did naim bring out a top cd player at a time when they were probably developing the HDX and so were the masses alike.
They must know something we don't, don't ya kinda think?
Steve
Its simple economics vs growth aspirations. Naim are a business that needs to make money.
There will be non naim users out there that want a high quality lifestyle system and until now Naim did not really have an offering. Also downloading digital music is undeniably on hte increase, the HDX makes good business sense.
Do you really think that all of the money that Naim have invested in its CD spinner range and the thousands of £'s spent on said spinners will be replaced by HDX players, no chance!!
Vinyl is on the march not other way around. From a business perspective there is no way that Naim expect its installed base to trade in its CD spinners for HDX players its looking for and probably will win a bright shiny new customer base.
This isn't a quality discussion its about business opportunity and growth.
Posted on: 27 April 2008 by cafez27
QUOTE]
Nah! Vinyl died a death due to CD back in the 1980s!
[/QUOTE]
Ahh be careful 555 we were sold a pup on the basis of the quality when it was really about economics, cheaper production, less space on shelves, easier and more convenient to own etc...........
Mmmmmm if you think about it thats a bit of a metaphor for CD vs HD
PS Love CD btw
