Understanding Classical Music

Dear Naijeru, and dear Fred,

I don't think I can offer more useful observations than your posts give!

Really all Art is likely to have more or less Universal parallels from time to time, but not necessarily in every case beyond a certain point.

Sometimes music is almost entirely literary in terms of finding the key to unlocking its mystery and meaning, and sometimes, [and quite often for my favourite music] the literary parallel is more incidental than even a consideration, in my trying to penetrate the music's significance!

Thanks for you probing posts, which gave me great pleasure to read. Much as good conversation at a dinner party would! This is my idea of the forum at its best. Differing view-points discussed with civil understanding of each other's enjoying that simple notion that there is more than one approach trying to understand and enjoy music. Some will tend to the literary way more than others, without this being any judgement on a different perspective.

ATB from George

From a listener's point of view, understanding music is very simple---repeated listening (often many many repeated listenings) of a great piece of music leads to understanding and familiarity, whether it be classical or in my case jazz as well. I have always found it interesting that once a piece of music (or a jazz solo) is really absorbed, it almost becomes encoded in the mind, so that I know what is next to be heard at any given point in time. A typical example is hearing a jazz selection I may not have listenined to for 20 years, but knew very well, and it is amazing how each note is anticipated in the mind....same with a classical piece that has been "encoded" from repeated listening.

This is exactly my method with difficult and just out of reach music! Twenty years on and I knew and loved the Missa Solemnis! Okay that was ten or so years ago! I did look at the score, because I played in it more than once, and in those days it was easier to play than listen to! Strangely the B Minor Mass was immediate in its impact on me at its first encounter as a member of the audience. The second listen was as if I had known it all my life! The Saint John Passion, I learned from the bass part up, after hours of practicing what is actually quite awkward music on the double bass. First I learned the bass-part, and then studied the score, so I knew it by heart, even though it was as yet unheard by me, except for the bass-line. Then I went to the first rehearsal! The conductor let me play without any further comment, or correction.

The Saint Matthew was not similar! And no piece did I ever have a greater wish to play in!

There is no shortcut to learning the music, though for really bright people, the score can help. I found that listening first allowed the score to make more sense. I have never approached a piece of music first through the score, though composers and other really good musicians can and do ....

Happy Easter from George

quote:

Originally posted by Oldnslow:
From a listener's point of view, understanding music is very simple---repeated listening (often many many repeated listenings) of a great piece of music leads to understanding and familiarity, whether it be classical or in my case jazz as well. I have always found it interesting that once a piece of music (or a jazz solo) is really absorbed, it almost becomes encoded in the mind, so that I know what is next to be heard at any given point in time.

Indeed! I think a large part of the joy of music comes from learning these patterns. There is the satisfaction of predicting which note will come next and the surprise of sometimes hearing a different note that still works. Thelonious Monk is one of my favorites for this because his style is so off kilter but never out of place; it's like viewing a high-wire act over Niagra Falls! Music also seems to open paths in the mind for new ways of thinking.

The sense that a piece of music is telling some story in completely musical, not literary, terms is very strong for me, and adds a great deal of meaning for me.

The forms and the mechanisms used in music are quite different than literature, but somehow still analogous. Somehow there is a commonality of purpose.

This extends to the act of reading a book and reading a score right through the listening experience.

Of course, detailed analysis comparing literature and music is fruitless, as they are so alien to each other, but who says only words can tell a story? Certainly not me.

Language is the mother root to music, and there lay the common cause.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Of course, detailed analysis comparing literature and music is fruitless, as they are so alien to each other, but who says only words can tell a story?

Not really, in opera and lieder the two come together. Also worth noting perhaps that not all music is programmatic in the sense of forming a narrative. One of the things music can do which is virtually impossible in spoken or written language is cause time to stand still, in other words create a space in which there is no movement. Notable examples are the episodes in the slow movement of Brahms's piano concerto no 2, the fugue from Beethoven C# minor quartet, and perhaps the great Adagio from Schubert's quintet in C, D956.

There are also structural parallels at a micro rather than macro level. The relationship between sentences and musical phrases, between form and structure in a musical movement and a novel or poem.

See also music being attempted in literature, like the sirens chapter from Ulysses...

EW

For myself, music never stands still in time, as in a good performance, I can always feel the beat - the pulse of time, which is the most fundamental quality of both music and literature, the rhythm, or meter.

Even in the Well Tempered Clavier, I feel I am being told a story, but in purely musical terms.
Of course, this is strongest in opera, songs and other music that has a declared narrative that is literary, but I feel it is present in all music.

Dear Mike,

I would agree that effect of listening to a Prelude and Fugue from the Well Tempered Clavier has a parallel to being read [out loud] a story. It raises one up in spirit!

Happy Easter from George

A number of months back, I decided to pursue sight singing in fixed do. Every note gets a syllable that is unique, and that does not change with key.

I took six 45 minute lessons with a professional musician. I practiced about 20-30 minutes a day. This was not to be a life time commitment.

At the same time, I was studying the Bach St. Matthews Passion. I read the text every night, and reflected on its meaning at lunch time. I listened with full concentration for four complete listens.

Can't say how I stand in hearing these things. What I can say is every lesson opened my ears to things I hadn't heard, and the act of listening seems more like a dialog than before.

My Naim gear sounds better than ever :-)

Highly recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
But, to reiterate once again (re-reiterate?), when I speak of the parallels between music and written/spoken language, I'm not at all talking about the content of the literature, but its organizational aspects ... its logic, syntax, clarity, and musicality. There are patterns and devices that make sense to the human brain, and they tend to crop up in many disciplines: music, literature, sciences, visual arts, etc. For instance, I hope you will agree that phrases in a melody can "rhyme," or that the ubiquitous "rule of 3s" occurs not just in language but in music, too ... a well-written melody, or an entire section or musical work, can have a "punchline," or at least a payoff, summary, or conclusion, much like a well-written sentence, paragraph, poem, short story, novel, etc.

I think this is too narrow a view of music. Yes, a lot of music is organized in such a way that it can be compared to literature, but there are forms of music that cannot be compared to anything literary. They don't use verses, don't necessarily have melodies and start and stop rather than have beginnings, middles or ends. George gave some examples earlier along these lines. Certainly there are consistent themes in art, but wouldn't those themes by definition be universal and not intrinsic to any one form of art?

I don't mean to insist that every possible example of music has a corollary in literature ... this is a general observation rather than a hard and fast rule.

I do insist, though, that anything that occurs over time has, by definition, a beginning, middle, and end. This would apply equally to the hearing of a musical work, as well as the reading of a literary work.

Just to take one example: the C minor melody of the 3rd movement of Brahms' 3rd symphony, a piece of music which, it seems to me, has many clear parallels to written/spoken language. If you listen with this in mind, you'll hear that the melody has "words." I don't at all mean lyrics, I don't even mean any literary content or programmatic implications whatsoever. I mean that it parallels common organizing principles of sentence and paragraph structure, syntax, "rhyming" phrases, question and answer, sequential material, etc.

But you're right, there are many examples of music without melody, without verses, etc. And, to be sure, there are plenty of literary works without conventional organizing principles, too. Ultimately, we'd find all sorts of exceptions to this, that, and the other. But, again, my point isn't that this is an airtight, all-inclusive theory ... it's just a set of observations that seem to apply to a very large number of musical works.

All best,
Fred

The process of learning to love new music inevitability involves choices of taste. I prefer music that has the elusive, transparent narrative quality, that is entirely musical, being discussed on this thread.

Certainly all music does not possess this quality, but for me it is highly prized.
Music without this quality is more of a chore to listen to.

If you're not sure what I mean, give a listen to some Fred Simon. That's as clear an exposition of this idea as you will find. Or if you prefer, virtually any Bach.

Early this morning, I gave a listen to three works that possess the elusive quality of feeling like a story :

Messiaen's Illuminations from the Beyond
Shostakovitch Symphony No. 15
Beatles' Abbey Road

If there is some common thread between these three, I feel it lay in the management of tension and release, which is present in every phrase for all three of these. In your heart, you can feel it each time a musical thought achieves resolution, and also that not every resolution is equal in importance, but rather contributes to the wholeness of the piece.

I find it particularly interesting that the Messiaen possesses this feeling of a story being told, as there is no specific meter.

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
I do insist, though, that anything that occurs over time has, by definition, a beginning, middle, and end. This would apply equally to the hearing of a musical work, as well as the reading of a literary work.

Of course we experience time linearly, but this does not mean that a piece of music is organized this way. This is why I said there is some music that merely starts and stops, there is no relevance to beginning, middle or end as there must be in a story. No matter how hard you may try, all music cannot be squeezed into the box of narrative. At this point it becomes a matter of preference, or in my case a lack of one. Some people prefer that music have a narrative or appearance of one in order to enjoy it. I do not.

... tension and release, ...

The release comes, each time a musical thought achieves resolution.

Perfect description of what happens in music, at least music with architectural cohesion.

I personally see this as being something different to narrative quality!

Happy Easter, dear Mike! From George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

... tension and release, ...

The release comes, each time a musical thought achieves resolution.

Perfect description of what happens in music, at least music with architectural cohesion.

I personally see this as being something different to narrative quality!

The concept of tension and release is part and parcel of a narrative.

Best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
I do insist, though, that anything that occurs over time has, by definition, a beginning, middle, and end. This would apply equally to the hearing of a musical work, as well as the reading of a literary work.

Of course we experience time linearly, but this does not mean that a piece of music is organized this way. This is why I said there is some music that merely starts and stops, there is no relevance to beginning, middle or end as there must be in a story. No matter how hard you may try, all music cannot be squeezed into the box of narrative. At this point it becomes a matter of preference, or in my case a lack of one. Some people prefer that music have a narrative or appearance of one in order to enjoy it. I do not.

A common failing of analysis is that the analysis frequently overlooks some fundamental quality, the absence of will render the work without meaning.

Without exception, any artwork which unfolds in time possesses a beginning, a middle and an end.
Ignoring this, the work must be not comprehended.

I must ask Naijeru, from what basis do you seek to comprehend western classical music?

Please provide examples.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

Of course we experience time linearly, but this does not mean that a piece of music is organized this way.

It precisely means that all music is organized this way. Failure to comprehend this means that you must utterly fail in hearing what has been written.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
I do insist, though, that anything that occurs over time has, by definition, a beginning, middle, and end. This would apply equally to the hearing of a musical work, as well as the reading of a literary work.

Of course we experience time linearly, but this does not mean that a piece of music is organized this way. This is why I said there is some music that merely starts and stops, there is no relevance to beginning, middle or end as there must be in a story. No matter how hard you may try, all music cannot be squeezed into the box of narrative. At this point it becomes a matter of preference, or in my case a lack of one. Some people prefer that music have a narrative or appearance of one in order to enjoy it. I do not.

Naijeru, I have the feeling that you're still misinterpreting my point about musical narrative. I don't at all mean a "story" in the sense of "One day, Bob went down to the sea ... " etc. Or even the discontinuous narrative of films like Pulp Fiction or Betrayal. What I mean is a narrative quality devoid of specific literary or linguistic content. I hear this quality, as do many others, even in music considered to be "pure."

As regards "music that merely starts and stops," it may seem as though it "merely starts and stops," but there is always (except in aleatory music, a la Cage and others) a choice made by the composer as to which note/sound will be heard first, and which note/sound will be heard last, and those choices have meaning ... again, I don't mean a specific programmatic meaning, but they have meaning nonetheless.

Best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The process of learning to love new music inevitability involves choices of taste. I prefer music that has the elusive, transparent narrative quality, that is entirely musical, being discussed on this thread.

Certainly all music does not possess this quality, but for me it is highly prized.
Music without this quality is more of a chore to listen to.

If you're not sure what I mean, give a listen to some Fred Simon. That's as clear an exposition of this idea as you will find. Or if you prefer, virtually any Bach.

Mike, I'm deeply flattered and honored to be cited as exemplary of music with a successful narrative quality, much less to be considered so in the company of Bach!

But it's true, I strive for that unspecific narrative quality in my music, which I feel greatly enhances an emotional connection for the listener.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
I don't at all mean a "story" in the sense of "One day, Bob went down to the sea ... " etc. Or even the discontinuous narrative of films like Pulp Fiction or Betrayal. What I mean is a narrative quality devoid of specific literary or linguistic content.

It's not necessarily devoid of such content though is it? And some quite remarkable compositions seem to be concerned with creating a kind of sublime stasis which is outside of the narrative in which it's embedded; although being (usually) embedded, it's easy enough to argue I suppose that these moments of quiescence are a component of an overarching narrative.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
A common failing of analysis is that the analysis frequently overlooks some fundamental quality, the absence of will render the work without meaning.

Without exception, any artwork which unfolds in time possesses a beginning, a middle and an end.
Ignoring this, the work must be not comprehended.

I must ask Naijeru, from what basis do you seek to comprehend western classical music?

Please provide examples.

I am not limiting my discussion to western classical music, but considering all music per fred simon's post. Primarily when talking about music without narrative I am thinking of African styles of drumming in addition to ambient and more minimalist electronic music. I understand there is Indian music that has this quality as well but I haven't heard any examples of it. These forms, while capable of expressing narrative are not necessarily driven by it. Their purpose is to create moods, spaces or emotions that are not defined by time even though the music happens in the time domain. With regard to western classical music, I agree with George that fugues fall into this category of non-narrative music. I suppose if you truly desired you could infer a narrative from such music but I think that would be unsatisfying and ultimately miss the point of the music.

Once I track down some decent examples I refer you to on the Internet to I'll provide an idea of what I'm talking about.

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:
I am not limiting my discussion to western classical music, but considering all music per fred simon's post. Primarily when talking about music without narrative I am thinking of African styles of drumming in addition to ambient and more minimalist electronic music. I understand there is Indian music that has this quality as well but I haven't heard any examples of it. These forms, while capable of expressing narrative are not necessarily driven by it. Their purpose is to create moods, spaces or emotions that are not defined by time even though the music happens in the time domain. With regard to western classical music, I agree with George that fugues fall into this category of non-narrative music. I suppose if you truly desired you could infer a narrative from such music but I think that would be unsatisfying and ultimately miss the point of the music.

Once I track down some decent examples I refer you to on the Internet to I'll provide an idea of what I'm talking about.

You remind me that I have my blinders on musically, focusing on western classical music.

Fugues remind me of the chorus in a greek tragedy, for what that's worth.

I look forward to your examples, in the hopes of learning something.

I have heard native African drumming groups in the flesh at jazzfest here in New Orleans, and as you say it just starts and stops without any hint of an underlying ABA form. Somehow that slipped my mind.

I am very much looking forward to an education :-)

Eek! Music's vital juices have drained away unnoticed, lost in dilution to the saliva dripping from jabbering mouths.

It's just a metaphor and it only goes so far.

Enjoy music for what it is: something that can tickle synaptic pathways unreachable to other stimuli. I'd hazard an ignorant guess that only smell goes deeper.

Down with rational analysis! Long live intuition!

quote:

Originally posted by Nathaniel:

Down with rational analysis! Long live intuition!

They aren't inherently mutually exclusive, but the idea that they are, expressed above, is a common romanticized myth.

I've quoted this before, but it seems appropriate to do so again. It's by physicist Richard Feynman:

I have a friend who's an artist, and he sometimes takes a view which I don't agree with. He'll hold up a flower and say, "Look how beautiful it is," and I'll agree. But then he'll say, "I, as an artist, can see how beautiful a flower is. But you, as a scientist, take it all apart and it becomes dull." I think he's kind of nutty.

First of all, the beauty that he sees is available to other people--and to me, too, I believe. Although I might not be quite as refined aesthetically as he is, I can appreciate the beauty of a flower. But at the same time, I see much more in the flower than he sees. I can imagine the cells inside, which also have a beauty. There's beauty not just at the dimension of one centimeter; there's also beauty at a smaller dimension.

There are the complicated actions of the cells, and other processes. The fact that the colors in the flower have evolved in order to attract insects to pollinate it is interesting; that means insects can see the colors. That adds a question: does this aesthetic sense we have also exist in lower forms of life? There are all kinds of interesting questions that come from a knowledge of science, which only adds to the excitement and mystery and awe of a flower. It only adds. I don't understand how it subtracts.

In my 40+ years as a musician, composer, recording artist, student, teacher, and, most importantly, audience member, I have only experienced how it adds to my ever deepening love of music, never how it subtracts.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Naijeru:

I agree with George that fugues fall into this category of non-narrative music.

The term fugue derives from the Latin fuga, "flight," and is related to fugitive, from fugere, "to flee." The intertwining iterations of the subject seem "chase" each other. I don't at all mean to suggest that a fugue is some kind of musical cops-and-robbers story, but there is definitely a non-specific narrative going on. There can be an almost visual, theatrical sense to the counterpoint. Also, the manipulations of the subject, counter-subjects, episodes, have direct parallels to similar sorts of manipulations of the spoken/written word.

A great example of a fugue with a deeply emotive narrative sense is the 5-voice double fugue in C# minor in Bach's WTC. The disquiet and tension/release of its first subject, just four notes long, is palpable. And certainly narrative.

Best,
Fred