Time Signatures and Pop Music

Money by Pink Floyd was released in the US as a single and reached #13 in the Billboard Top 100.

PD

you might fancy yourself some Zappa Phil.

Of course! Money! Another 7/4 gem. I didn't realise it was a single in the States

I love Zappa of course, but I don't believe he had too many top 20 singles.

Phil

All You Need Is Love - The Beatles

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:


All You Need Is Love - The Beatles

Fred

Absolutely!

A couple of years ago a couple booked our church choir to sing at their wedding, and they wanted 'All You Need Is Love'. It is one of those songs that if you know it you just sing it, but we have some rather senior members who claimed they had never heard it!

The time signature chops and changes throughout, and after a few rehearsals we had managed to sing it in a regimented way that completely stripped the music of its communication ....and so we did something we have never done before or since, we played a CD and sang along to that - with the congregation!

quote:

Originally posted by Mr Underhill:

The time signature chops and changes throughout, and after a few rehearsals we had managed to sing [All You Need Is Love] in a regimented way that completely stripped the music of its communication

Yes, not easy at all if you don't already have it in your bones. It's the perfect example of a so-called "odd" meter that feels not odd at all as you're listening, quite natural, in fact. And that, in my view, is how it should be. Odd meters that call attention to themselves are inorganic and less musically satisfying.

Fred

Another example, albeit much less well known, is Right Hand Man by Joan Osborne on her album Relish. It's a delightfully nasty, rocking, Stones-y number in 7/4.

Fred

quote:

Odd meters that call attention to themselves are inorganic and less musically satisfying.

Fred,

I think, you're right and I suspect this means there's quite a few more "top twenty" odd meter songs out there that don't draw attention to themselves in that respect, so we don't immediately recognise their non 4/4 (or 3/4) nature. I still can't think of any though!

It hadn't occurred to me that All You Need Is Love falls into the category till you mentioned it - which rather reinforces the point.

Not top twenty, but there's a really lovely 9/8 ballad, Inside Out, on Greek singer-songwriter Athena Andreadis' (www.athenaandreadis.com) first CD.

Any more?
Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Ward:

Not top twenty, but there's a really lovely 9/8 ballad, Inside Out, on Greek singer-songwriter Athena Andreadis' (www.athenaandreadis.com) first CD.

9/8 isn't really considered an odd-meter in that it's basically triple meter with triple subdivisions. True odd meters aren't divisible by 2 or 3 ... 5/4, 7/8, 11/4, etc.

Sting has worked with odd meters in a pop context, although without some research I can't give an example. Probably Genesis, too. And I know there's at least one Led Zeppelin song with odd meters.

Best,
Fred

Phil-

They are only hits to those like me that suffered from the delusion that everyone should like the Dead, but they played in many odd time signatures. My favorite of those is the swirling, propulsive jam they used to link St. Stephen and Pigpen's shows stopping performances of Turn On Your Lovelight which the band named "The Eleven" which was in 11/8 time. On the right night Lesh and Garcia could turn this into a dancer's paradise; sort of like cresting waves inside a cyclone.

Good listening,

Bruce

Part of Playing In the Band too.

Fred

quote:

9/8 isn't really considered an odd-meter in that it's basically triple meter with triple subdivisions. True odd meters aren't divisible by 2 or 3 ... 5/4, 7/8, 11/4, etc.

Sting has worked with odd meters in a pop context

Fred,

I bow to your (far, far) better knowledge musical theory but I'm surprised 9/8 isn't considered odd. It certainly feels odd when I play it – possibly because I tend to try to feel it as two bars of four and a half!

Sting (who I admire greatly as a musician. but following his reported private £1.5M Uzbekistan gig, have my doubts about as a human being) did the wonderful "Seven Days" in, not surprisingly 7/4, but I don't think it bothered the charts.

Bruce, yes, The Dead seemed just as comfortable in odd meters as "even", but no hit singles.

Are we really saying there's just three hit singles in odd meters? Solsbury Hill, Money, and All You Need is Love?

Phil

Jethro Tull 'Living in the Past' 5/4

Sting 'Seven Days' 6/8 (I think, maybe 7, can't remember)

Dave Brubeck Quartet 'Take Five' 5/8, well jazz, not pop, but a hit anyway.

Tears for Fears 'Everybody wants to rule the World' 12/8. which is basically four time with played as triplets, but is still 12/8 technically.

Genesis 'Turn it on Again' 7/8 (I think), I know it sounds like straight 4, but it is one of those songs that is in an odd time signature because it more or less plays three bars (?) of four, and then has a half bar, so it all adds up to seven (maybe 9, I would have to listen to it and count the bars).

Although not a hit single, 'Gallows Pole', a traditional folk song, covered by Led Zeppelin, is in 2/4 I think, and again that is because of it more or less being four time, with a half bar every so often. Led Zeppelin did a few tracks in odd time signatures, 'Achilles Last Stand' has a few time changes in it, as does the live versions of 'Dazed and Confused'. Like Fred, I am sure there are more. Whether it is pop though is another matter.

Tool 'Schizm' 5/4, not sure how high it charted, but got very heavy rotation on MTV, and probably made enough sales in the US warrant a mention. 'Parabola' by them would count too, far too complex for me to mention what time signatures are in that.

6/8 and 12/8 are probably more common, as they are often played as four time, with a folky feel.

In contrast a song that should be in 5/8, the theme to 'Mission Impossible' was bastardised into four time by U2 (can Larry Mullen mange anything else?), and probably also by Limp Biscuit (but I can't be bothered to recall their drivel).

I am sure I can think of a few more. Folk based songs, or covers are a good source for songs not in four time, as they often predate the more regimented modern songwriting.

Being a fan of prog rock, especially King Crimson and Yes, I have dozens of tracks not in four time, and many in very complex time signatures, but they were album bands, and hardly ever ventured into the world of singles.

There might be a few metal tracks too, but probably album bands. I know Iron Maiden ventured into some fun with time signatures, but don't really know their music, so can't name any tracks.

Times Like These by the Foo Fighters has passages in 7/4. Great song, too.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

Dave Brubeck Quartet 'Take Five' 5/8, well jazz, not pop, but a hit anyway.

Take Five was definitely a hit, and definitely in 5/4.

Fred

Spanner sizes, anyone? [American system I mean, not Metric or Whitworth].

There is nothing wrong with 2/2, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 as reasonable time signatures to fill with genius of a most expressive musical kind. Why look for complex sophistication when the normal and well tried will serve well enough to make sublime music. Klemperer said, quite reasonably, that expression can only start when the rhythm had been conquered. Why add an extra hurdle for both performers and listeners alike?

I can think of one memorable piece in 5/4. [Edit: Two after some thought - Fred, try to guess what they might be!].

Mostly these strange time signatures are awkward to play and immediately incomprehensible to the listener. I remember hearing a story about the great George Guest, when faced with a 7/8 time signature and the Choir and Orchestra being totally foxed.

"Gentlemen, I shall beat a steady four [i.e. 4/4] and please just keep up with the bars." The premiere was a huge success even so!

This kind of musical-intellectual cleverness can have its resonance, but more often than not it falls flat.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

There is nothing wrong with 2/2, 2/4, 3/4, 4/4, 6/8, 9/8, or 12/8 as reasonable time signatures to fill with genius of a most expressive musical kind. Why look for complex sophistication when the normal and well tried will serve well enough to make sublime music. Klemperer said, quite reasonably, that expression can only start when the rhythm had been conquered. Why add an extra hurdle for both performers and listeners alike?

I can think of one memorable piece in 5/4. [Edit: Two after some thought - Fred, try to guess what they might be!].

Mostly these strange time signatures are awkward to play and immediately incomprehensible to the listener. I remember hearing a story about the great George Guest, when faced with a 7/8 time signature and the Choir and Orchestra being totally foxed.

"Gentlemen, I shall beat a steady four [i.e. 4/4] and please just keep up with the bars." The premiere was a huge success even so!

This kind of musical-intellectual cleverness can have its resonance, but more often than not it falls flat.

George, I have no idea which two pieces you're thinking of. But I do know that most of the above post is a lot of hooey, and I mean this in the friendliest possible way. These meters may be "strange" to you, but that certainly doesn't mean, therefore, that they're strange.

First of all, there are numerous cultures around the world which make use of time signatures which are not divisible by 2 or 3 ... that's the proper way to describe them, as "odd" and "strange" carry an implication of ethnocentricity. Suffice to say that in these cultures, these time signatures are neither "awkward to play" nor "immediately incomprehensible to the listener." Nor are they "intellectual cleverness." Nor unreasonable, nor lacking in expressiveness or sublimity.

Further, in the Western classical tradition, there are countless examples of time signatures indivisible by 2 or 3 which are not only used to sublime musical effect, they are necessary ... the composer -- be it Ravel, Bartok, Stravinsky, Hindemith, or Debussy -- recognizes that the music needs to be in a certain meter in order to have the proper flow, the right dance of rhythm. There is absolutely nothing inherently "awkward" or "incomprehensible" about these signatures ... can they be used to awkward and incomprehensible effect? Of course! Anything can be used to ill effect. But if organically conceived and well-integrated, these meters can certainly serve the music very well.

As I and others have already said, the best use of so-called odd meters is a result that doesn't feel or sound odd.

Best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:

Tears for Fears 'Everybody wants to rule the World' 12/8. which is basically four time with played as triplets, but is still 12/8 technically.

It's definitely in 12/8 outright. And 12/8 isn't an odd meter ... as you say, it's 4 beats, each divided into 3.

quote:

6/8 and 12/8 are probably more common, as they are often played as four time, with a folky feel.

Both are common, and again, neither are odd, nor is their relation, 9/8 ... 6/8, 9/8, and 12/8 are, respectively, 2, 3, and 4 beat meters with each beat divided into three eighth notes.

Best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Ward:

I'm surprised 9/8 isn't considered odd. It certainly feels odd when I play it – possibly because I tend to try to feel it as two bars of four and a half!

9/8 is generally a triple meter with each of its beats divided into three ... Ba-da-da ba-da-da ba-da-da

Now, 9/4 is sometimes used to produce an off kilter feel if divided, for instance, 4+3+2. 9/8 is occasionally used in this way, too, but more conventionally as described above.

Best,
Fred

Fred

I though the point of the thread was pop songs song in time signatures other than 3 or 4 time, that is why is noted about jazz, and time signatures other than 3 or 4.

No wish to squabble though.

Fred, (et al),

This is all fascinating stuff. I couldn't agree more with your reply to George and his, "these strange time signatures are awkward to play and immediately incomprehensible to the listener". Meters considered odd in Western music are perfectly normal in numerous other musical cultures.

Following Jamie's post (thanks Jamie) I'm just listening to Genesis' Turn It On Again (err, yes, not cool but I have it in my iTunes library) and I can't for the life of me work out what the meter is. I'd always thought it was "odd" but now I think it's actually 4/4 played with an off beat emphasis and with the occasional short measure thrown in at the changes. Have a listen and see what you think (somewhere private obviously or you'll be thrown out of the Jazz community*

Phil

* Having said that, I remember Chester Thompson saying in an interview that Weather Report used to listen to Genesis on the tour bus and that was one of the reasons he said yes when he got the call from Phil Collins.

PS. It never bothered the charts but of course the kings of odd meter "rock n roll" were Discipline period King Crimson.

quote:

Originally posted by JamieL_v2:
Fred

I though the point of the thread was pop songs song in time signatures other than 3 or 4 time, that is why is noted about jazz, and time signatures other than 3 or 4.

No wish to squabble though.

No squabble, just clarifying misconceptions. Actually, in Phil's original post, in addition to mentioning "pop songs in time signatures other than 4/4 and 3/4," he called for other "UK top twenty hit[s] in an odd time sig" which means time signatures indivisible by 2 or 3.

All best,
Fred

No problems Fred.

I remembered another odd meter pop song, which I think made Number 1, back in 1979.

Gary Numan 'Are Friends Electric' has sections in 7/8 I think, and well worth digging out the CD and checking.

Phil, I think 'Duke' is a great album by Genesis, but it often brings up contrasting opinions on the forum. For me their last rock album, before becoming a pop band.

I agree on King Crimson, I have never worked out the time signature to 'Larks Tongues in Aspic. Part 2', it is flipping between bars in 3 and 4, but what the count would add up to I don't know.

Not pop, and very unlikely to enter the singles chart, forum favourites Porcupine Tree have often indulged in unusual time signatures, I think 'Halo' has a middle section in 15/16, and 'The Sound of Muzak' is in something most definitely other than four time.

That said almost all prog bands played with time signatures, Van Der Graaf Generator did some fantastic plays with time on their albums.

Here is Gavin Harrison playing a pleasant 'jazzy' tune in 19/8. As he advises, "for the mathematically curious, it's split up into 7/7/5 . Sounds like a Yellojackets / Spyro Gyra tune?