Mugabe

hope so

Mugabe is just as much a wanker as Saddam and I can't believe the international community is doing f*** all abut him. This really pisses me off.

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
Looks like Mugabe is burning down the shantytowns all over Zimbabwe to "move the criminal element on" as he says.

Any day now President Bush will notice that Mugabe is a dictator subjecting his populace to shocking human rights abuses and will send American (and maybe British?) troops into Zimbabwe to liberate the people and institute fair and open elections.

Any day now.

Our Deane, It will unfortunately never happen (Bobby boy was originally a true African Hero, one musn't forget this) he's now long cracked, and INDO is totally doodlally, but he's still the boss like Bushy.

Fritz Von Zimbabwe will only be free when Bobby Boy dies naturally, and a peaceful transition will result, otherwise Civil War will kill millions upon millions across the region, and we'll be selling them the weapons John. HaRD bUT lIKELY :

quote:

Any day now.

No chance.

a) he learned his lesson in Iraq

b) he's over-committed there for a few years

c) Zimbabwe is part of the old empire.....and these days we don't "sort out" the old empire with tanks and aeroplanes, do we?

It would be nice to see a bit of political pressure applied by states surrounding Zimbabwe, together with open borders to allow refugees a safe haven......but I'm not holding my breath

Perhaps Live8 could take a look once it's sorted out Ethiopia....but again, I'm not holding my breath.

Any body got any practical propositions?? other than just waiting for ebagum to die, which is the only way I foresee change starting.

Cheers

Don

Fuck ! that post was so pissed and irratic I had to look twice to ascertain that I hadn't written it mesen ? The almost WW1 like rubbish that Ethiopia and it's neighbours have enjoyed over the last decade or so with our ordinance toys to help them beggers belief, and our ignorance of it. Robert Mugabe is a sideline of our guilt, irrespective of how daft (and damaging) he is, I know that's an understatement, but how can anybody justify invading a Sovreign land (without oil) just for the heck of it. Rhodesia will Prevail, but through no thanks to us in the UK, or her South African neighbours (at present) and there must be a reason, innit ?

Fritz Von Jon I'm only Dancin

I thought Bush was watching Mugabe for inspiration. The latter has already come up with a few barbaric ideas that W probably wishes he'd thought of.

Any body got any practical propositions?? other than just waiting for ebagum to die, which is the only way I foresee change starting.

....perhaps the (free) Nations of the world could Unite so as to bring their collective diplomacy, political might and wealth to help. And if this fails they could apply sanctions and economic isolation, or even, if really necessary, military intervention....

....nah... forget it.....it would never work....stupid idea (unite?)....apolgies

Cheers

Don

Unite....join together and act as one....

Now where was that post about "best short joke".....

Have another toke Son, and go down yer local flea market t'see if they've got any cheap/price-worthy Naim gear on offer.



Fritz Von Our Adam reckons it's me trackin ?

P.N.B.? A lot ov hard people on this forum don't appreciate namby pamby emotional rubbish, so take note and liven up your act John, I don't know who sounds more suicidal, Mike Tyson, Mike Jackson, or Mike the ex Wover Verker, innit ?

At risk of being controversial, I think the reason something was done about Iraq and not Mugabe is a little more simple: Zimbabwe has no oil.

This is nothing new, two elections ago in Zimbabwe, Mugabe supporters were making sure that food aid didn't get anywhere near people who'd voted against him.

The real problem is where do you draw the line. There are an awful lot of very nasty regimes about, are we going to go in a topple them all: off the top of my head, Sudan, North Korea, Syria, Iran, China, Uzbekistan, Cuba, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia (oh no, wait, those two are friends and trusted allies) could all do with a change. But for a variety of reasons we don't seem to be in any hurry. Even if we did adapt such a doctrine, whom do you depose first? What do you do if the united nations won't endorse it? What about the lives in our troops that it costs. Sadly, like all these problems, there are no easy answers.

Also, it's terribly difficult to do anything while African leaders, such as Thabo Mbeki, refuse to criticise the likes of Mugabe.


regards,

Tam

Just watched a brilliant prog on the Beeb called 'Art that changed the World/The Psalms of David presented by Our Deanne's mate Mizzz Greer, as brilliant a pain in the arse that she is on occassion, just like me mate Dave's bird actually. When one remembers that Christs own Mother came from the house of David, the first serious Christians being Ethiopean (and still following Jewish traditions, who consider King David as an Ethiopian. Plus when one thinks ? that yesterday Britain's Church of England elected a black man for the first time ever to the second highest position in the land (Archbishop of York) which I think is excllent personally, not just cos ee's a black geezer, but because he's the top man for the job (Who knows maybe a woman will get there one day- Hopefully if there's one good enough abaat, innit ?).

The Ethiopean Calender begins in our year 8AD, so one really does wonder if Christ was a White Ozzie with a yankee accent afterall, innit.



Fritz Von Jesus Christ is black (that's why his middle name's Arry, obvious innit Tom)


P.S. If anyboday deems this post in some way blasphemous to their particular 'Whatever'



Hard Luck, and God Bless your Hi-Fi Kit

Zimbabwe is one of the richest countrys in the whole of Africa regarding natural recources etc, please don't be fooled into believing otherwise, the British didn't Colonise it initially to teach them to play cricket John.

Chaps

You cannot have your cake and eat it. Bush and Blair were slagged off mercilessly for invading Iraq and how can you expect them to do the same in order to depose Mugabe.

You would whinge when our troops get killed and you would come out of the woodwork to protest in Trafalgar Square accusing the supporters of the invasion of being capitalist bastards etc.

No politician is going to take up this cause so Mugabe is safe.

Sorry but thats life so live with it.

Regards

Mick

Trafalgar Square's that gaff where old Mandela standin on a bleedin great plinf innit ?


Fritz Von Buying Tapes & LP's in Bulawayo

quote:

Originally posted by Tam:
At risk of being controversial, I think the reason something was done about Iraq and not Mugabe is a little more simple: Zimbabwe has no oil.

Quite. I thought of adding the line to my post "the day after oil is discovered in Zimbabwe the country will be liberated"...but I thought it would be too obvious. Iraq has yet to be liberated anyway.

I agree with Fritz actually (I think?), the idea of invading a sovereign nation to depose a dictator is pretty dictatorial in itself.

Were the US to "liberate" Zimbabwe it might start a cascade of "liberations".

Hell, Cuba might even invade Guantanamo Bay and liberate the "detainees"! Now that would be something. (Might even be morally justifiable too!)

Oil !!!!

I think you're just being cynically naive.

Its a good excuse for starting a war, but its a better excuse for whinging.

No doubt American troops are already creeping along the new Caspian pipeline to forcably secure the latest enormous reserves...or did Shell and BP risk a few dollars on exploration and infrastructure and set up deal with the local government.....

and as Fritz pointed out, Zimbabwe does have rich mineral deposits.

Perhaps New Zealand (seriously) could raise the matter at the next meeting of the UN.......that is, if you're serious about Zimbabwe, rather than just whinging about Iraq....again

Cheers

Don

Doesn't matter how seriously a matter is raised at the UN if veto power is held by some countries on the Security Council.

"Its a good excuse for starting a war, but its a better excuse for whinging." --- not sure I understand what you mean by this.

I didn't mean to whinge about Iraq, the point is there was a serious economic justification for going to war with Iraq, there isn't with Zimbabwe. (That's the case regardless of whether or not you supported the war).

Oil - what other reason was there? If we're going to go to war because of the regime, we should be lining up targets. We're clearly not. WMD, don't make me laugh. The US went to war to secure strategic oil supplies and we went with them.

My argument is also that if you're going to support a doctrine of regime change, where the regime is dubious, there were as many equally deserving candidates as Iraq. The difference was that Iraq had lots of oil, plus we were already set up to go to war with them, not to mention the fact that we'd pretty well been at war non stop since the first time around anyway.

For anything be done in Zimbabwe it would need to be done through, or at the very least with the support of the African Union (it would be next to impossible to take military action, that had the desired effect, without the co-operation of neighbouring countries - their support of Mugabe is the biggest reason why there has been no change).


regards,

Tam

Strangely enough I've just recieved a telegram infoaming me that our Bobby boy's not going to be around for too much longer, How Odd I thought to myself ?

Fritz Von Just had a marvellous impromtu mega firework display from my window (the palace is about arf a K away, and they did the bizz for Queen Charlotte's 3o0th bash), much louder and nicer than all those moronic car horn beepers put together, innit.

I think that most of you are correct in that the world is going to do asbsolutely nothing about Zimbabwe. It is already dead on its knees, and it will take generations to repair the damage to what was once the "bread basket" of southern Africa.

However, in terms of practical propositions that one can make, keeping up awareness and not sweeping it under the proverbial carpet is one thing that we can do. The following is a letter written recently, from that country:

Zimbabwe -- Thought For The Day


I kept quiet when they murdered 20 000 people in Matabeleland. I am not an Ndebele

I kept quiet when they tried to kill Morgan Tsvangirai in 1987. I am not a trade unionist.

I kept quiet when they called homosexuals worse than pigs and dogs. I am not homosexual.

I kept quiet when they beat the students. I am not a student.

I kept quite when they chased homeless people off the streets. I am not homeless.

I kept quiet when they killed farmer workers. I am not a farm worker.

I kept quiet when they chased away the commercial farmers. I am not a farmer.

I kept quiet when they chased away the teachers. I am not a teacher.

I kept quiet when they murdered Tichaona Chiminya, Talent Mabika and hundreds of MDC supporters. I am not an activist

I kept quiet when they tortured Ray Choto and Mark Chavunduka. I am not a journalist.

I kept quiet when they tortured Job Sikhala and other MDC members of parliament. I am not a politician.

I kept quiet when they arrested and beat the women of WOZA. I am not a woman.

I kept quiet when they chased away thousands of vendors. I am not a vendor.

I kept quiet.

I am ashamed that I kept quiet.

I am nothing.
I have no voice.
Who will speak for me?

Anonymous

Right now, there are countless homeless sitting by small fires in the ruins of the shanty towns around Harare that have just been burned down, in order to drive those people back into the country - on to the land liberated from the whites - where there is nothing being grown ... and so it goes on. No work, no money, no food.

The world has been here a long time and will be here a long time after Mugabe. He is not the first or last dictator on the African scene or indeed elsewhere. As millions die across Africa we can feel priviledged to live in affluent countries and go to bed each night with full tummies. However in the midst of our economic wealth we have fellow citizens who each day are being further and further disadvantaged. Perhaps if we concentrate on getting our own houses in order first? This is not to say that I find Mugabe a tolerable personality but until other African nations stop condoning his so-called democracy there is little that can be done by the outside world, even if there were the will to do it.

Agreed.

There is a perverse political correctness taking place in southern Africa that chooses to close its eyes to the realities within Zimbabwe. For them the question is strictly black versus white and with no allies in the region our intervention would amount to a disaster.

Oil has nothing to do with it. If South Africa offered us assistance and actually requested that we liberate Zimbabwe then I'm sure it would happen.

Oil prices have only soared since we "liberated" Iraq anyway.

A nice birthday present for Bobby Boy What ? 'And Did It My Way' Any Takers ?


Fritz Von Takers I said Our Mick, not Tokers !

The Question is [B]"Is Genocide an Internal Affair ?"[/B]:

Fritz Von I didn't feel it right that this thread slunk off to the bottom of the second page, innit

If ANY Zimbabwians in UK (as well as other seriously proven endangered exiles) are involuntarily returned I think the Ministers involved should either refuse (and if need be resign) or fucking be deported with he poor bastards, cos they ain't doin no good in good old England, innit.

Fritz Von It'll be a national disgrace of the highest odour

Phritz

Are you trying to build up feeling against returning indviduals to their country of birth? Try that one on Uzbekistan's popular leader. He and Mugabe would make good book-ends for your well-thumbed horror paperback collection.