Linn cartridge on Aro

Overtightening cartridge mounting bolts can damage the crystal structure of the arm, and result in the cartridge loosening prematurely. This may not affect the sound, but why risk it with arbitrarily great tightness as Linn are reputed to require? [But perhaps that's another apocryphal tale].

Arm and/or cartridge manufacturers should specify maximum torque settings.

JD

Hi mmhifi:

Where did you read "fingertight"? I don't remember seeing it anywhere.

FWIW, I believe Rega can supply their dealers with a suitable little torque wrench (looks a bit like a cotton bobbin) which is preset to around 40Nm. It's also worth mentioning that the Rega allen bolts are the best I've come across so far and put Linn's tat to shame.

With my DV XV-1 the body is threaded and for the first time in my life, having mounted literally hundreds (if not thousands) of cartridges, I found it intuitive with the DV to know exactly when to stop tightening, - it justs feels 'right'.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Mark,

Hi, I've been thinking of getting an XV-1. How do you find it? Is it worth the money? Could you go back to something else? Did you try or were tempted by anything else?

At the moment I have a Linn with a Lingo/Ekos holding a Troika.

Any thoughts would be helpfull.

yours,

Sean.

Well,

In Aro manual in chapter "Fitting the Cartridge"
we read:

"Do not overtighten the screws holding the cartridge".

Now screws supplied with Aro(supposedly for Troika!!!) are VERY weak, nothing like original strong Linn screws. If you will try to do with them "Linn tight" ritual you will easily destroy them(was there, did it!). "Fingertight" are words of one of forum members about mounting Troika on Aro(sorry don't remember name)-otherwise you will destroy Aro screws!

[This message was edited by mmhifi on SUNDAY 25 August 2002 at 22:31.]

sean wrote:

>Hi, I've been thinking of getting an XV-1. How do you find it?<

The best cartridge I've ever heard. Much more PRaT and swing than a Troika (used to have one) and much more insightful to the music. More detail and frequency extremes are extended and controlled. Tracks like a demon. It's a bit chubby and tall and requires the heavy counterweight for the ARO. I don't know whether it's mechanically suited to the Ekos, you'll need to ask Linn I'd guess.

>Is it worth the money?<

For me personally, yes. For my wife...

>Could you go back to something else?<

Tough question. The physical make-up of the XV-1 with its 8 Alnico magnets etc. produces a very different 'type' of experience. What I mean by that is that, say an Ortofon Rohmann and a VdH Grasshopper produce markedly different results but someone familiar with decent cartridges would recognize them both as excellent moving coils. The XV-1 is different in that it doesn't (in my opinion) give clues to it's ancestry or even that it's a transducer in the conventional sense. You'll need a dem' to grips with what I'm trying to say.

>Did you try or were tempted by anything else?<

I've owned a few and dem'd a lot. From Koetsu through Lyra, Benz and so on. Even an Arkiv II a while back ;-) My previous cartridge was a DV Te Kaitora which is excellent in its own right (I believe Frank Abela has one on his Mission Mechanic and Gyrodec) and I preferred that to all the others I've heard. The XV-1 is however, rather ahead of the TK.

Summing up, with the ARO as a platform it's sheer magic. It's moved me to tears more times than any other cartridge I've used. I don't know for sure but there was some rumours that Dr. Tominari of Dynavector used the ARO as well as the DV arms in developing the XV-1. This is supported to some extent by the overhang of the XV-1 (and Te Kaitora too) being exactly right for the ARO.


For mmhifi:

Not *too* tight is probably good but 'finger tight' is too loose. Naim might supply relatively weak screws for a reason but with the finger lift as a stress reliever it would be quite difficult to damage the mounting area (I would think) before doing damage to either screws or the cartridge body. As ever, common sense in tightening should prevail.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Numeruos people on numeruos forums said Naim intentionally wanted relatively weak cartridge screw tightening on Aro because of sound quality issues(I remember somebody said "Linn tightening" on Aro will result in exessive brightness). Linn from the other side always said very strong tightening is essential for good PRAT(it ensures fast energy transfer from cart to arm). Interesting contradiction...

What do you talk about? There are Linn cartridges only on Linn planet - and they are very robust with shell-proof metal bodies and very strong hardware. You have not to be afraid do it TIGHT,
as TIGHT as you and your tools can. Other shmocks make vulnerable cartridges? It's not interesting for Linn...
What IS interesting Naim makes arm supposedly for Linn cartridges and doesn't want to do this TIGHT thing. Maybe somebody from Naim can explain this?

[This message was edited by mmhifi on MONDAY 26 August 2002 at 14:47.]

Are you sure you are not talking about the Aro's arm height allan bolt? That should not be too tight as it does lead to an unsubtle sound quality.

I am talking about Aro CARTRIDGE HOLDING SCREWS and Aro manual recommendation for cartridge fitting ONLY. They are against Linn's "theory"
completely.

If you consult the Linn instructions http://www.linn.co.uk/docs/disassemble_remount_instructions.pdf they specify that the cartridge mounting screws should be tightened until the Allen key starts to bend. This isn't tight in terms of what you can achieve with your wrist without much effort or even steroid abuse.

So take care.

IMO if less tight sounds better then there's a design or engineering issue. It shouldn't be possible to tune the sound with the cartridge bolts. And if they aren't 'tight' then they will come undone over time.

Paul

Metal is elastic to a point, then it becomes plastic. When you've crossed that line you've tightened too much.

Is it any more complicated than this?

Joe

Ask every LP12 dealer about fitting cart on Ekos
and they will say it has to be "Linn tight" - i.e.
full(and they mean - full) tightening and then
additional 15%. Only proper Linn supplied screws
are alive after such torture. I think dealer installation manual is different from this one.

Well friends I have official "Linn LP12 Turntable Set Up Manual. Revised Jan 1998" in my hands. It's
document for dealers not for users. Don't ask me where did I get it-it's top secret. On page 4 we read chapter "Tightening Procedure":

"Since we are dealing with a transducer that has to recover information considerably smaller than a millionth of an inch from a phonograph record,it is important that all fasteners(screws,nuts,and bolts) in the turntable be very tight. Whenever the instructions call for you to tigten a fastener,we do mean tight-probably tighter than you would have imagined. However,there is no advantage to tightening past the point where materials will deform,or where you damage the materials or destroy their structure. A good rule of thumb is simply to bring the nut or screw up to where it seems tight and then turn it about 1/8 turn more(in the case of armboard screws,which are put in the wood,1/16 turn will do)."

Now on page 13 we read in chapter "Align the Cartridge":

"Linn cartridges must be mounted very tightly in the headshell. If the cartridge body is not strong enough to allow it to be mounted tightly it cannot perform at it best. All Linn cartridges,except the K5,are metal bodies and can be tightened properly."

So per Linn Set Up Manual Linn cartridges CANNOT
perform at their best with Aro supplied bolts and mounted per Aro manual instructions. If this statement is wrong - please explain us!

quote:

---

Originally posted by mmhifi:
"Do not overtighten the screws holding the cartridge".

---

If it says this, I wouldn't tighten any more. I would be worried about deforming the headshell.

cheers, Martin

quote:

---

So per Linn Set Up Manual Linn cartridges CANNOT perform at their best with Aro supplied bolts and mounted per Aro manual instructions. If this statement is wrong - please explain us!

---

I don't understand your problem. The Linn advice sounds quite sensible to me.

If you like the 'less than its best' performance offered by the ARO/finger tight Linn cart combination then why are you concerned by the theory?

FWIW nipped up plus 1/8 is reasonably tight. There's nothing magic about it. Much less than that will not stay done up unless you use a thread locking compound.

We've seen two specific methods for ascertaining 'Linn tightness'. I haven't seen any evidence that 'Naim tight' is actually less tight!

Paul

Actually Aro's headshell is very strong. I don't see any possibility to deform it by cartridge bolt tightening. Do you pay attention to dead silence of Naim moderators? Isn't it strange?
Obviously my question is about design feature(or maybe design error?!) of famous Naim product...

We've seen two specific methods for ascertaining 'Linn tightness'. I haven't seen any evidence that 'Naim tight' is actually less tight!
-------------------------------------------------

Sorry but "Naim tight" is much LESS than "Linn tight". I had Ittok and now have Aro(both with Klyde) and you cannot do "Linn tight" with Aro bolts-you will deform them.
I have no any problems at all-world is beautiful,
I want to understand only what's the hell is Naim logic not to go by Linn route with product which was designed with Troika in mind...

MM,

quote:

---

Do you pay attention to dead silence of Naim moderators? Isn't it strange?

---

Carl Sagan was fond of pointing out that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Maybe the moderators simply haven't read your question. Easy solution --> just e-mail the factory.

And why assume Linn tight is right? Maybe Linn is wrong.

Joe

Where's a Hobbit when we need one?

The only thing I can find in the ARO manual on fitting the cart is, 'Do not overtighten....' I see nothing about 'finger-tight'. Where exactly does Naim advise 'finger-tightness' for cartridge attachment?

BTW, the ARO does violate Linn's theory; it is a unipivot, after all, which Linn says can't work.

How many people have bought AROs? How many have heard an ARO and enjoyed it. I guess that's about the number of people who disagree with Linn's theorizing on this issue. Linn has made signioficant contributions to home hifi; they're far from perfect.


Phil

[This message was edited by Phil Barry on MONDAY 26 August 2002 at 23:47.]

I don't say Linn is right and I don't say Naim is right. I say there is contradiction between Linn and Naim. Now Naim - it's not about religion but about engineering and I beleive all things they do they do because of engineering reason. This REASON is all I want to know. Why do I want it?
Because everybody knows LP12 is very fussy about set up and one undertighted(or overtighted) bolt can send all the wonderful deck performance to inexistance. Do search on the forum and you will find quite a few speculations about "minimum tightness of Troika bolts on Aro for optimum performance" and "Aro is not Ekos so don't fit cartridge tight" - something that against Naim instructions too...

Er, can I make a small, if a bit obvious point?

Regardless of whether you're talking about a Linn or a Naim arm, if you "overtighten" a nut/bolt you will damage components.

Thus, Naim's warning not to overtighten the cartridge mountings on the ARO is also applicable to Linn arms.

The appropriate tightness may be different for the two manufacturers, but overtightening will be damaging to both.

Chris L

mmhifi,

I'm sorry, but I don't follow your point at all. I searched on 'tightness ARO' and found nothing on fitting the a cartridge to an ARO except this thread.

Let me be crystal clear: this thread looks like a troll. If you are looking for a serious discussion, I expect you will provide specific citations for your pseudo-quotes.

As for 'engineering', art remains an important part of audio. Some things sound better even though the reasons are not understood. As someone said above, the fact that a phenomenon hasn't been measured doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
The 'engineering' is sometimes a matter of experimentation....

Let's get this thread on track - get some facts on the table instead of vague insinuations.

Phil

Trolling?! Please, take Naim supplied bolts(with Aro) and Linn supplied(with his carts) and do us favor-please test them. After that you can say what do you want.
Now fast search give us for instance
"fingertight"

'Finger tight and a bit more' is exactly what Linn suggest. They just quantify the 'bit more'.

Paul

Are you serious??? If your LP12 bolts are in such condition I am really sorry about you. You listen to real mess not music and about PRAT you heard from this forum only - not from LP12.
Well additional information from same author

link