I'm afraid I have to agree with John Prescott...

If you do not like then do not look.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
If you do not like then do not look.

I dont think Rupert is saying he finds the pictures to be aethestically displeasing. Averting our gaze from viewing something unpleasant is one thing but ignoring injustice or barbaric behaviour is another. I agree with Rupert that publishing the photos is squalid and barbaric. It is also a pathetic attempt to divert attention from the totally predictable unholy barbaric mass death and destruction caused by the illegal, immoral and unjustified invasion of Iraq by US and UK forces.

I would not find it pleasing to look at a man beating a child with a stick, I could avert my gaze or I could stop the man doing the beating. Which is the better course of action? Suggestimg Rupert look away if does not like what he sees is strange advice imo.

I find it strange that anyone would want to see it. Seriously bad karma to let that level of negativity into your head.

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
I find it strange that anyone would want to see it. Seriously bad karma to let that level of negativity into your head.

I agree it is sick to seek out these images for entertainment, gloating and perverse curiosity but if the images are unavoidable (as they are when they jump off the front pages of newspapers at breakfast) then at least one can feel some compassion for all those concerned in this sorry tale and thus escape the 'seriously bad karma'of letting any negativity into our heads. I guess what I am saying is that is not the viewing that matters so much as the motivation for viewing and what we think about when we are viewing.

If we are all to turn away from viewing unpleasantness (for want of a better term)like turning away from photos of nazi death camps then we run the risk of allowing such evil to be swept under the carpet of our collective thinking and that may be a more serious problem than facing the sight of such atrocitiy and developing a sense of moral outrage and a determination never to allow such crimes to be committed again. If more people feel as Rupert does then something might be done to end capital punishment or at least something might be done to stop the publication of images of executions by the greedy sensationalist media.

On the other hand if people were to see photos of the hundreds of women and babies blown apart by Israel's recent psychotic bombing of innocent civilians in Lebanon they might actually want to do something about it rather than just ignoring it. They might.

I'm not sure what effect the images of a hanged/dead Saddam will have on the world - is the world a better place now milions have seen these images? Probably not. It would depend, on how many people were saddend by the images and how many gloated and rejoiced in them. I suspect the latter group is the larger and that the world is a sadder place because of it (ironically). I am happy Saddam is not free to persecute, maim and kill anymore but I am not happy he was executed and his final moments recorded and published for all to see. Incidentally I am sure that the authorities would have searched all those present at his execution for cameras and mobile phones if they had genuinely not wanted any film of his death to be released to the ravenous press. I suspect the Americans filmed it and released it. Their hypocrisy knows no bounds.

A terrible mess...

I shall avoid it in one respect, in that I willl not have a television in my house. The main reason is that I do not trust the taste or values of News Editors, any more than enjoying the quality that is found in the greatest part of modern TV programming - Big Brother Live, anyone - but it surely is a sign of the fact that civilised values are slipping that such things should be recorded, and the more so that these recordings are then widely disseminated...

Kindest regards from Fredrik

The death penalty is surely an indicator of a barbaric and backwards society. So not so strange to note then that it's something that Iraq and (some parts of) the USA have in common ...

Duncan

And of course instead of closing that chapter in Iraq's turbulent history the execution merely seems to have deepened the existing divisions, hastening the total breakdown of the state and the onset of a full-blown civil war. Another triumph for Bush and Blair.

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
And of course instead of closing that chapter in Iraq's turbulent history the execution merely seems to have deepened the existing divisions, hastening the total breakdown of the state and the onset of a full-blown civil war. Another triumph for Bush and Blair.

Very true and its all part of the master plan.

Seeing these images on television and in newspapers recently made me think back to the footage of Al-Zarqawi and the like. Devoid of sound or the printed word, what do these images portray?

Al-Zarqari -hooded men in combats about to carry out an execution.

Saddam Hussein's end -hooded men in combats about to carry out an execution.

My intention here is not to start argueing over the various elements of both situations but the paralells of the imagery horrify me. Sorry for being simplistic but I guess I just wish 'civilisation' could move on.

At the moment, barbarism seems to be drowning civilisation. It is also dis-spiriting.

Or even all so dis-spiriting!

The showing of Saddam's execution was disgraceful but the death sentence was sensible and just. A more humane method, such as lethal injection, should be adopted to dispose of serial killers generally.

I think his excution should have been televised. This was a state sanctioned execution. The pictures should have been shown, not to remove his dignity, but to remind all who sought his death what is actually involved when a life is taken.

We should be able to see what is done, for me the revulsion at killing, whoever it may be, is important. Politics, wars and invasions are not about moving counters on a map. A bomb blows people to bits. Gory, smelly, painful bits. Cameras reporting from Iraq and other places should report from the hospitals and the orphanages to remins us this is not a video game.

Bruce

Bruce

I agree with you completely; people should see the horrors or war and the ugliness of excecutions and perhaps then we might hope to evolve beyond them.

For as long as such things are hidden away or sanitised we will be able to deny or ignore how cruelly we treat one another. To often war is portrayed as noble or righteous by the leaders of society (political or religious) but in reality it is brutal, grotesque and a failure of humanity.

I find it truly distasteful when people indignantly complain that they have been shown something they don't like (babies in hospitals, people blown to bits etc), well too bad, if we are culpable or responsible we should look and own our part in it.

Doug

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce Woodhouse:
I think his excution should have been televised. This was a state sanctioned execution. The pictures should have been shown, not to remove his dignity, but to remind all who sought his death what is actually involved when a life is taken.

Totally agree. When I was younger I was more ambivalent about the death sentence. If I'd seen then the images that were shown recently it would have shocked me and polarised my opinion. I know this guy was no angel, and in many respects he deserved what he got, but to me the death sentence is only about revenge not punishment. And as for the lack of dignity surrounding the proceedings (if there can be dignity in such circumstances) I found it repellent.

Very strange then that there only seemed to be one person acting in a dignified way at this execution. I don't think I could face that prospect with such equanimity.

I also find it strange that of the "progressive" nations Japan and some USA states still find this necessary. It's a bizarre kind of progress indeed.

Duncan

Quote from someone on one of our local radio shows"Dont worry it was only a tyrant,there'll be another one along shortly"

George

quote:

Originally posted by scipio2:
A more humane method, such as lethal injection...

The lethal injection has recently been suspended in some States of the USA, because it is not humane. This was after a case when it took, I think, well over an hour (more?) to execute one convicted person.

I do not support the death penalty at all myself. Though in the end this is/was not my decision. But personally I think that it would have been more of a punishment for Sadaam to have languished forgotten in some anonymous little jail cell. Solitary confinement if necessary.

Completely depriving someone of a lifetime's liberty, without hope of parole, is not to develop amnesia over their crimes, but gives them the rest of their life to contemplate them.

After his capture, Sadaam was castrated, losing all power. Now after being hanged amidst his taunting enemies, giving every impression of "victor's justice", he has regained power.

As Sadaam himself said in his final statement, unlike languishing in jail, by hanging he has an opportunity for martyrdom.

Why, oh why, did anyone think that making him a martyr would be a good idea? (It is the height of naivity to believe that, hanged, he wouldn't be.)

James

..............if you type 'hang' here and hit the 'i feel lucky button' it is truly gruesome and not for the faint hearted............look away now children.

Diccus

quote:

The lethal injection has recently been suspended in some States of the USA, because it is not humane. This was after a case when it took, I think, well over an hour (more?) to execute one convicted person

This is bizarrely interesting. I had to euthanase a very sick pet recently at my local vet. She died in a peaceful manner. How come they cannot - according to JWM - find a lethal, painless injection for Homo Sapiens? Different physiology but surely the same stuff kills us. Anyone know?

Duncan

quote:

Originally posted by Duncan Fullerton:

quote:

The lethal injection has recently been suspended in some States of the USA, because it is not humane. This was after a case when it took, I think, well over an hour (more?) to execute one convicted person

This is bizarrely interesting. I had to euthanase a very sick pet recently at my local vet. She died in a peaceful manner. How come they cannot - according to JWM - find a lethal, painless injection for Homo Sapiens? Different physiology but surely the same stuff kills us. Anyone know?

My memory got the detail of the timings slightly wrong, but the essential facts correct.

I've now found some news coverage. It all happened 15th December 2006.

This is a report from 22nd December, after three States had halted execution by lethal injection. I just typed "lethal injection halted" into Google.

I have enbolded comments that seem to relate to points raised by Duncan:

"Executions of condemned prisoners by lethal injection are now on hold in Maryland, California, and Florida.

"On Dec. 15, Governor Jeb Bush suspended all executions in that state after it was revealed that errors during Florida’s latest execution by lethal injection likely caused extreme pain amounting to torture for the inmate, Angel Nieves Diaz.

"On the same day, a federal district court in California extended a moratorium on executions in that state. The court ruled in the case of Michael Morales that the lethal injection protocol used in the state likely violates the Eighth Amendment’s ban on cruel and unusual punishment.

"Maryland’s highest court ruled on Dec. 19 that the execution protocol in that state had never been submitted for public review, as required by law. Accordingly, the court ordered a halt to executions until the matter of public review was resolved in the legislature.

"The debate over lethal injection focuses on a three-drug protocol used in virtually all states that administer capital punishment. In several states, the combination of drugs, is outlawed for use in the euthanasia of animals because of the risks of causing pain amounting to torture."

Or, if you would prefer, here's some BBC coverage

James

James,

Interesting. I was with my cat when the vet "put her to sleep". She was entirely peaceful and her last was a slight sigh before her heart stopped. I have no idea what drug was used but (notwithstanding my objections to the death penalty aside) I'd be interested to know from someone in the know, as it were, what is "used" on humans.

Duncan

Dear All,

I find some of the indignation at what happened when that Despot and Murderer was executed acording to law in his own country of Iraq bizarre.

Surely the reason for his execution was for the atrocities he committed to thousands maybe hundreds of thousands of people.

Remember it would have been Iraqui 's who would have taunted him at the time of the execution and not george Bush.

It would seem to reflect the abhorrence many felt for this evil Dictator.

It prevented this despot believing that his death would be a glorious end to a glorious life. To be ridiculed just prior to his death would have been a very final insult to such a vain man.

He was an abhorrence in this world.

he has been removed from this world.

He should be forgotten and become an irrellevance.

The iraquis should now move forward to a new world and we should encourage and support the people of iraq, not feel second hand guilt about the end of that tyrant.

regards David

David
The tragedy is the gap between "should" and "will". Wishful thinking is highly unlikely to change the deeply entrenched prejudices embedded in the hearts and minds of the people in Iraq.

quote:

Originally posted by DAVOhorn:
...To be ridiculed just prior to his death would have been a very final insult to such a vain man.

Might it not have been an even greater 'insult' to this vain man to have starved him of the very oxygen of publicity he craved?

He feared being ignored more than anything else.

The result is the same. The West have now elevated his status to hero among his supporters who will now grow in numbers. Yet another worsening of the situation, but hey, don't worry, Bush will send another 3,000 troops.
Prepare for another terrorist attack.