Just when will this man resign?

And from the title, I thought you were referring to our very own war criminal!

quote:

Originally posted by Chris Kelly:
And from the title, I thought you were referring to our very own war criminal!

Ah yes, he is undoubtedly a war criminal too but he has been referred to us such by a good many on this ere forum whereas Olmert has not (at least not recently)so I thought I would bring people up to date.

Our own war criminal will stand down as PM soon and retire to write his memoirs and slime over to the US to make lots of dosh on the lecture circuit - he will probably get a Knighthood too and sit on the boards of major UK and US companies when he should be arrested and carted off to The Hague and slung in a cell for the rest of his life with no one but Olmert and Bush for company. What a strange world we live in.

Over 100,000 rally in Tel Aviv to call on PM, Peretz to resign
Organizers: Roughly 200,000 attend rally; author Meir Shalev: 'Olmert you said you work for us. You're fired!' 03:29

Hi Haim,

2 million plus protested on the streets of London in the UK against invading Iraq but Blair still went ahead. 200,000 people protesting in Israel and still Olmert stays on - the wheels of democracy turn very slowly!

As for the protests in Israel 'Among them were left-wing Meretz activists, protesting shoulder to shoulder with right-wing Yeshiva students attending paramilitary preparatory courses' (Haaretz). I suspect these groups are protesting for very different reasons!

The kind of power that world leaders wield must be the most addictive drug known to man - I wonder why we voluntarily give this drug to our leaders? Why do we have leaders? Why do we give one man (or woman) this kind of power? Maybe we should all be more like Switzerland?

Switzerland seems to be the bunker for Europe's weaponry...

Erik,

Unfortunately, Israeli politicians never had a strong tradition of stepping down when they ought to.

The exception was the late Rabin who resigned on the spot when it was found that his wife had maintained an illegal bank account in the US. She had won the money on a TV show when Rabin was the ambassador to the US and left it in a bank there after returning to Israel.

Olmert's political career is over and eventually he will be forced to resign, or the Labor party will quit his coalition and force a new election.
On top of being a politician he is a lawyer, a combination that leaves less room for integrity and shame.

Here is what our friend Hassan says:


Nasrallah offers unprecedented praise for Israel over report
By Haaretz Correspondent and AP , By Yoav Stern

"In an unprecedented move, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah yesterday praised the Winograd Committee's report on the Second Lebanon War.

Nasrallah said he respected Israel's "verdict of failure." During an appearence in Beirut, Nasrallah said: "I will not gloat. It is worthy of respect that an investigative commission appointed by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert condemns him," Nasrallah said. "When the enemy acts honestly and sincerely, you cannot but respect it."
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"Even though they're our enemies, it is worthy of respect that the political forces and the Israeli public act quickly to save their state, entity, army and their existence in the crisis," Nasrallah added. "When it comes to survival, the Zionists are prepared to sacrifice Olmert and a thousand more like him."

The militant Hezbollah leader also said Winograd had reaffirmed his claim that Israel had been defeated in the war. "The report is a clear declaration of defeat for Israel," Nasrallah said. "The report wrote the word failure more than 100 times."

Slinging a barb at Defense Minister Amir Peretz, who during the war vowed "to make Nasrallah remember" his name, the Shi'ite leader promised to "never forget" the name. He added that he had anticipated Israel's "defeat," as its government was "ill-experienced."

Lebanese Prime Minister Fouad Siniora complained that the report failed to mention the mass destruction Israel had inflicted on Lebanon during the war."


On numerous interviews to the Arab press Nasrallah admitted that he did not anticipate a war with Israel and the abduction of the Israeli soldiers might have been a mistake on his part. But after his great 'victory' with all the deaths and destruction it brought on the Lebanese, there is no one there asking Nasrallah to step down.

Who knows, perhaps deep in his heart, Olmert wishes he too had a private armed militia who would have enabled him to stay in power longer...

Regards,

Haim





quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
Hi Haim,

2 million plus protested on the streets of London in the UK against invading Iraq

Sorry Erik but that is pooh.

quote:

Originally posted by Haim Ronen:
Erik,

[QUOTE] Unfortunately, Israeli politicians never had a strong tradition of stepping down when they ought to.

I don't know any country where they do have a strong tradition of politicians stepping down - they are a thick skinned breed of chancers for the most part.

quote:

The exception was the late Rabin who resigned on the spot when it was found that his wife had maintained an illegal bank account in the US. She had won the money on a TV show when Rabin was the ambassador to the US and left it in a bank there after returning to Israel.

That shows integrity. Good for him.

quote:

Olmert's political career is over and eventually he will be forced to resign, or the Labor party will quit his coalition and force a new election.
On top of being a politician he is a lawyer, a combination that leaves less room for integrity and shame.

Too true

quote:

there is no one there asking Nasrallah to step down.

I think the Israeli tactic of bombing Lebanon to drive a wedge between the people of Lebanon and Hezbollah (if tactic it was) was fatally flawed. It may be that Nasrullah's position is even stronger than it was - the Lebenese are the most stubborn people on the planet imo. By all usual norms of thinking Nasrullah should also resign amid widespread condemnation for his part in last summers madness instead many people think he is a hero. Bloody madness imo.

quote:

Originally posted by mike lacey:

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
Hi Haim,

2 million plus protested on the streets of London in the UK against invading Iraq

Sorry Erik but that is pooh.

Mike,

I have seen a figure as high as 2.5 million being quoted! Wikepedia says: 'In the United Kingdom, both the governing Labour Party and the official opposition Conservative Party were in favour of the invasion, leaving the Liberal Democrats as the main parliamentary opposition. Outside parliament, anti-war sentiment was more widespread: the 15 February 2003 protest in London attracted between 750,000 and 2,000,000 supporters from various walks of life (in contrast to more typical anti-war movements ......'.

BBC

Back in February of this year I attended a demo in London with between 100 and 150,000 people (I was there, I saw it with my own eyes)and the police told the BBC there were only 10,000 on the March! Are we to believe everything he hear in the media?

HI Erik

Wiki is hardly objective; entries can be, and are made by interested parties.

Regards

Mike

Erik,

Here is the speech given at the demonstration by the writer Meir Shalev (his book 'Blue mountain' is highly recommended).

http://www.kibush.co.il/show_file.asp?num=19804

Haim

quote:

Originally posted by mike lacey:
HI Erik

Wiki is hardly objective; entries can be, and are made by interested parties.

Regards

Mike

And can apparently be challenged as well... Fredrik

Haim,

Many thanks for the link. Damn good speech. What do you think will happen next?

quote:

Originally posted by mike lacey:
HI Erik

Wiki is hardly objective; entries can be, and are made by interested parties.

Regards

Mike

Mike,

Wiki tries to be objective and, as Fredrik says, it can be challenged and is challenged and over time will get things pretty much right. There are many news items to be found on the net and I have not seen one that gives a figure of less than 750,000 for the march in London. Many give figures of between 1 and 2 million for London alone but there were also marches on the same day in all the major cities and towns. Even if one takes the most conservative estimates and totals them we can see approx. 1.5 million marched (I think 3 million is nearer the mark). For everyone that marched how many could not or did not march who were nonetheless against the war? If one hundred people are against something how many of them will actually go on a demo? How many members of this ere forum have ever been on a demo? Most, I am sure you will agree, simply grumble at their tv and stay firmly seated on their couches. I think the conservative estimate of 1.5 million out of a total population of approx 60 million is a staggering and overwhelming indication that the vast majority of the people in the UK were against the war and Blair still went ahead. He did not listen for a second. So much for democracy then.

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
Haim,

Many thanks for the link. Damn good speech. What do you think will happen next?

Erik,

Regardless of all the talks about the next round of war, I expect the border to remain calm, not only because the UN forces are positioned there now, but mainly because both sides had their very costly lessons.

Perhaps the Israelis will dangle the Shebaa farms as an exchange for Hezbollah's disarmament. Perhaps Nasrallah will surprise us and accept the offer which would be another victory for him.

If that happens, Nasrallah will be free to try to get democraticly a more proper representaion of his Shiits in the Lebanese Parlament and Government and the Israelis will be able to engage more freely in peace talks with Syria and the Palestinians.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0822/p10s01-wome.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shebaa_Farms


It is like watching a movie, Erik, knowing exactly what the ending is going to be like, not knowing though how many reels we have to sit through to get to that ending.

I hope it is not that far.

Haim

Here is some reaction in Lebanon:

Lebanon searches for its own Winograd

By Yoav Stern

The Winograd Committee's harsh findings on the government's performance in the Second Lebanon War is a source of envy for many people in Lebanon. Several writers and leaders there have published articles calling for the adoption of the Israeli method of public reckoning to break Lebanon's political impasse.

Many criticize Hezbollah's actions and the fact the Lebanese state has allowed the terrorist organization to escape without due payment for its decision to abduct two IDF soldiers last July 12, which provoked Israel to go to war.


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Left-wing opposition legislator Elias Atallah spoke for many in his damning editorial in the daily Asharq Al-Awsat called "Where is the Lebanese Winograd Committee?"

"I envied the enemy for their ability to confront their leaders with their errors. They change governments as if they were changing hairstyles, without inflicting damage to their public. Our rulers, by contrast, are not answerable."

Lest he be suspected of pro-Zionism - which in Lebanon can be spell a death sentence - Atallah reiterated that he regarded Israel as Lebanon's bitter enemy. "I nonetheless recognize that in Israel, the government must answer to the public. And so, they learn lessons and learn form experience," he wrote.

Another prominent journalist, Edmond Saab, editor-in-chief of An-Nahar, called for a state inquiry into Hezbollah's accountability for the war and the devastation it has caused in Lebanon. "An investigation of a military and legal nature is an appropriate measure. We must investigate whether Hezbollah erred in miscalculating the Israeli retaliation.

Saab named the lack of public scrutiny in postwar Lebanon as a cause of the political mayhem that engulfed the country in recent months. "Had we launched our own mini-Winograd committee, it would have served to resolve the prolonged and protracted political stalemate that we witnessed between the coalition and Hezbollah," he wrote.

Erik,

Here is Gideon Levy. I think I introduced his writing to you earlier. He is excellent as always.

Haim

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/855913.html

I think Olmert is a bit of a scapegoat and he prefers it to being a figurehead.

The Winograd (interim) report is feeding the myth that war was started hastily and unprepared.

quote:

Originally posted by AlexanderVH:
I think Olmert is a bit of a scapegoat and he prefers it to being a figurehead.

The Winograd (interim) report is feeding the myth that war was started hastily and unprepared.

Read Gideon Levy

You're going to educate me Haim?

quote:

Originally posted by AlexanderVH:
You're going to educate me Haim?

Alexander,

I am not trying to educate anybody.

I am definitely not interested in exchanging personal barbs with you or anyone else.

Reading the two sentences you posted, I assumed that Levy who goes in his article beyond the direct responsibility of Olmert, Peretz & Halutz, and talks about the IDF and the Israeli public's role in the conflict reflects more or less your views.
Since you did not mention Levy, I was not sure if you read him or not and I asked you to read him figuring you will enjoy his writing.

As for the myth: There is no question that the Israeli ground forces were not prepared for the war. Reserve units did not have the minimum refreshing training, they lacked basic equipment, supplies and most important of all: operational plans with clear objectives.
The home front was totally unprepared with its neglected and insufficient number of shelters.
The IAF (Air Force), on the other hand, was as always very well prepared.

Haim

Hey Erik,

Nothing to say about the farms...?

I thought that the Shebaa Farm was as good of a story as the tales of Queen Sheeba...

Haim

Haim, sorry about not getting back to you earlier. That's why I don't start threads, no continuity.
My comments were based on reading the Winograd report. In my understanding the unpreparedness of the ground forces was a matter of underestimating the adversary, consequently insufficient contingency planning, and inflexibility in adapting to the events in the war. It was not a matter of being caught unawares, the ground army was prepared for only a small role in the war, which is never fun, and that proved to be wrong.

As for the shelters, I'm sure there is room for a lot of improvement. But lack of shelters was largely a problem for people who were not jewish. I don't think that will change.

Alexander,

In one short sentence, the business of taking care of the occupation caused the IDF to be unprepared (on so many levels) and to underperform in the Lebanese conflict.

Regardless of the bad advice he received from his Chief of Staff and the total lack of experience of his Defense Minister, I find Olmert fully responsible for all the bad decisions and moves made during the war and I wish he would resign.

Personally, I think that this stagnant situation will not continue for much longer, and Israel is going to be involved in intensive peace negotiations with Syria and the Palestinians or fight another war. Either way, towards peace or war, I don't think that Olmert is the right person to lead Israel in those difficult times.

Regards,

Haim

Erik,

If you are reading this, I wish you would have found articles by someone more honest than Robert Fiske whom I deeply despise.

Haim