US & British military in Iraq

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
Why are we sitting around shaking our heads in horror? Why can't we, the public, stop this happening? How do we put our foot down and make them understand that this has to end?

Rasher,

The coalition forces can not stay and nor can they leave. This was forseen before the invasion. Things will get alot worse. Bush knows he has to order a withdrawal but cant stand to lose face so he will leave it up to his successor. Ditto Blair. Of course any withdrawal will be seen as a victory for the arabs by the arab world. This is a war that should never have been fought because, like Vietnam it was unwinnable. I have said all this before on this forum. I have also said US forces are over-estimated. They are often badly led, ill-disciplined, poorly trained, gung-ho and trigger happy. A succesion of British Generals have seen to it that British forces have completely separate areas of operations because of this and the inevitable blue on blue incidents that the US forces are incapable of avoiding. US forces are fed on a steady diet of propaganda, they are so psyched up and trigger happy as to be a danger to any but the most compliant Iraqis and many have drug problems. The atrocities we hear about are only the tip of the ice berg. This unprofessionalism causes so much damage to all the good work the British have done and constantly undermines our troops (who should never have been there in the first place but do good work nonetheless). The whole thing is a grotesque fiasco. What a way to start the 21st centuary.

There is a growing demand for troop withdrawal even in the US and I can only advise you to write to your MP, write to Blair and the US Embassy and to publically demonstrate when demostrations are held. I've never been on a demonstration in my life but I am going to start. When enough people take to the streets to demonstrate something will be done but it is up to all of us to play a part, no matter how small in making this happen.

First chance I get I will go on a demo. We have become way to complacent in this country. Britain is fast becoming an ugly little nation. Just look at the latest American craze to be adopted here - filming children fighting and posting it on special websites for entertainment. The US website owners are profiting from this obscenity to the tune of $100 million a year and yes it is coming soon to a street corner or school playground near you.

Erik

A million people took to the streets in a demonstration before the start of the war and Blair still invaded. I'm not trying to be flippant or negative here - I just feel totally powerless about the situation. Obviously we have to vote that clown Blair out but I don'#t know if it will make any difference. Now that we're stuck in this mess I suppose it will be difficult to extricate ourselves

Chaps

Both Blair and bush were re elected after the Invasion so the protest vote was a flop.

A lot of people actually think what we done was right but we just don't go bleating on about it as much as the anti's.

I can accept that you do not agree with the invasion but you lot have to accept that both countries have re elected both Bush and Blair, so stop rambling on.

Regards

Mick

I was prompted to post when I saw the news yesterday that American troops had stormed a house and killed everyone inside, including 5 children - a baby had a bullet in the head. American reports say the house collapsed and the people inside died, but the BBC reported illustrated that the house is still standing and the report was total fabrication. American troops have gunned down 5 children in a house in retaliation for a troop dying in an ambush. This isn't war, this is pure fucking evil. You might wish to turn away Mick, but it haunts me.

Bush at least was elected after a very dodgy election. He was elected by the most ill-informed and unsophisicated elecorate in the first world. The invasion was justified on misinformation, spin and downright lies. The baulk of America was told that the invasion was payback for 9/11 (Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11) - many Americans still believe this. The invasion was technically illegal. An invasion on the mere suspicion of there being WMD is illegal. The American media is months behind the UK media in it's reporting of the real reasons for war and how people have been manipulated into supporting the war but the truth is slowly trickling out even in their neocon right wing media. Neither Bush nor Blair could possibly survive another election based on the increased intolerance that the thinking public has for this grotesque and obscene war crime which escalates daily. The fact that a misguided public voted for these two deluded 'christians' does IN NO WAY justify the invasion or the continued presence of troops on the ground much less the increasing escaltion of hostility through incompetence and murder.

Those guilty of the Haditha massacres and the one to which Rasher refers should be dealt with by Courts Martial in public.

The US forces are out of their depth and their officers are cover up merchants. I would die for those under my command but I would not lie for them. For every atrocity commited by coalition forces (almost uniquely American forces)how many angry muslims are recruited to terrorism and thus continue a cycle?

Interestingly when Bush was asked to comment on the latest massacre (there have been many but most have been covered up)he replied 'this is a big problem for me' nice to see his egocentric take on the situation. I doubt his 'problem' is as big as the little girl who watched her entire family being shot at close quarters by US Marines.

Many supported the war in Vietnam at first but how many of those changed their minds when the 'reality' of what was really going on became clear?

History will show Bush and Blair to have been wrong. 'You can fool some of the people some of the time but......'

Couldn't agree more, Erik.

Mark

Dear Rasher,

In the olden days, did not the US characterise old [Commuinist] Russia as 'The Evil Empire?' Well they seem to stepping into the shoes rather fast in my view.

I hope the US populace wake up soon...

Fredrik

To say that Blair was re-elected on a pro war mandate is oversimplification. Most people realise that we would have gone in regardless of who was in power. Had it been the Tories we likely would have committed even more, Back on the domestic front we knew who we wanted.

Cheers

Harry

quote:

Originally posted by Harry K:
To say that Blair was re-elected on a pro war mandate is oversimplification.

If someone said that then it would indeed be an oversimplification, however, I am not sure anyone did say that on this thread.

Cheers

Erik

Harry

I said the protest vote flopped.

The Lib Dems are on your side and how many MP's did they get elected.

Blair got re elected for a package of votes which scored well with the electorate.

You had your chance at the last election and you failed.

Time to shut up methinks.

Regards

Mick

I think you're getting confused with someone eles Mick. Failed to do what? Get labour back in? No, if memory serves they did win the last election. Which was what I was hopimg for. If you think I'm some flag waving peace protester you've defenitely got mixed up. I do not support the war. But I haven't protested against it or token voted - that seldom works.

Cheers

Harry

So why was Iraq invaded? Sure, it was all a lie (the reasons given at the begining of the war).

What I am certain is that it had nothing to do with making Iraq better for the people of Iraq.

How much money is the US spending on this war in Iraq? Who really is the ultimate benefit of this war? Somebody or bodies are making a lot of money whilst the sons and daughters of the invading countries are dying in a foreign land on a senseless war. Seehttp://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1681119,00.html

Not to mention giving more reasons for the fanatics to incite more hatred for the invaders and their homeland. It is stupid.

A quote from the link:
But in terms of the total cost of the war "there may have been alternative ways of spending a fraction of that amount that would have enhanced America's security more, and done a better job in winning the hearts and minds of those in the Middle East and promoting democracy"

?

quote:

Originally posted by Harry K:
.... Get labour back in? No, if memory serves they did win the last election. Which was what I was hopimg for. ....

Cheers

Harry

I was hoping for a hung parliament - now that would be good TV.

Don't vote it just encourages them

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
Don't vote it just encourages them

LOL! If only. I would vote anyway, but around here the majority is hundreds, so every vote counts. Anyway, back to the arguing……

Cheers

Harry

With Bush and others appearing to have their ideas and beliefs shaped by religious teachings then this offering from Channel4 (20:00h, Tuesday June 5th, ) might just throw some light onto the clash of cultures or clash of religions question and who indeed runs the White House. You never know an answer or two might surface but I doubt it.

In some ways I sort of hope the mess in Iraq continues for a while. Obviously I know that it will, but from a selfish point of view I've been offered a job out there. The money's not bad, not as good as you would imagine but it would keep the wolf from the door for a little while

quote:

Originally posted by Roy T:
With Bush and others appearing to have their ideas and beliefs shaped by religious teachings then this offering from Channel4 (20:00h, Tuesday June 5th, ) might just throw some light onto the clash of cultures or clash of religions question and who indeed runs the White House. You never know an answer or two might surface but I doubt it.

Roy,

Do you mean this:? It is on tonight not tomorrow.


God's Next Army
8:00pm - 9:00pm
Channel 4

This from radiotimes.com


"My goal is to right the heartbeat of America," says 18-year-old Samantha. I'm not sure what she means either, but she's one of many bright-eyed students at Patrick Henry College near Washington DC who plan to take the school's aggressively Christian values into high-flying political careers. And having watched this eye-opening film, you wouldn't bet against them. The students combine breathtaking naivety with a ruthless single-mindedness. I suspect even staunch Christians will find them slightly stormtrooper-like as they pound the corridors of the Capitol to lobby congressmen and their staff, hoping to abolish estate tax because it's unbiblical: "The Earth is the Lord's." But they're well connected, well organised and in the ascendant. It's hard to believe that people who are being taught that geological strata were all laid down by the Great Flood may be taking control of America's levers of power, but that's the way it looks here. Gulp.'

Last night we had the treat of seeing how Bush and his administration have systematically covered up the scientific evidense of global warming even to the point of threatening scientists and now tonight we get yet more joy. I suspect the radiotimes reviewer has not gone nearly far enough.

Somebody on another thread suggested there has been too much anti american stuff recently and how it is best not to 'stir the nest' (sic) but I think people said similar things back in Germany circa 1933-45.

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
Somebody on another thread suggested there has been too much anti american stuff recently and how it is best not to 'stir the nest' (sic) but I think people said similar things back in Germany circa 1933-45.

Controversial. I wish I didn’t agree. It’s bad enough when a retarded religious zealot isn’t in charge. Grim times indeed – but nowhere that we haven’t been before. Sooner or later someone will learn from it.

Cheers

Harry