A Farewell to Freedom

There has been quite a bit of discussion up here about the issue of holding a minutes silence for the death of the Pope and a lot of crap on both sides of the argument.

Many Celtic fans wanted the SFA to enforce the holding of a minutes silence purely because they knew that many other teams (Hearts and Rangers being the prime examples) wouldn't fully observe. Celtic themselves have a bit of a history with not observing silences in the past (the Queen mother and IRA bombing victims being examples) and I suspect this was also a factor.

In this particular case neither side did themselves any favours - Hearts with the non-observance and Celtic with the subsequent mass chanting of sectarian hate slogans.

My own opinion is that silences should only be held for the victims of major tragedies (9/11, Dunblane, the tsunami) or footballing greats and never, ever for religious or political leaders or royalty.

The SFA and SPL openly stated that there was no place for a religious divide in football.

For that reason, there was no need to hold the silence.

All they have succeeded in doing is stirring up what they are trying to get rid off.

Coming to law - if I was one of the Heart's fans charged I would employ Donald Findlay QC as my council and adopt the stance that there was an enforced religious act at the stadium that was contrary to the religion of the fans.

If that is not a sectarian act, I give up !

Religion is personal - and should be kept that way outwith a place of worship, the home or the mind. It causes too many problems otherwise.

Steve G - agree 100% about the silences but I would conceded that there may be a case for the death of the ruling monarch.

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
Steve G - agree 100% about the silences but I would conceded that there may be a case for the death of the ruling monarch.

There may be a case but I don't think it should be mandatory. Just as there was no chance of Hearts fans observing a minutes silence for the Pope there is also no chance of the Celtic fans observing a minutes silence for the Queen.

We refer here to Scottish Law one would assume ?


Fritz Von I shot the sheriff

As you know the new daughter in law of Elisabeth I of Scotland is known as the Durchess of Rothsay Norf ov der boader, innit, for all of you Malt gadgies !

Hearts choose to ask for 2 minutes silence - a request for voluntary behaviour I always thought. I choose to ignore it, not being a papist, and the result is I'm banged up for a criminal offence.
Did all those heretics burn in vain?

Bob

That Heart's goal was a cracker though wasn't it ?


Frirt Von My firewall's fine though my computer got flooded

quote:

Originally posted by Berlin Fritz:
That Heart's goal was a cracker though wasn't it ?

Any goal against Celtic is a cracker IMHO...

Well said that man !

Though as Our Mick would surely admit a farewell to arms would be nicer, and saying goodbye to a freedom you all seem to think you have seems strange to me ?
With the British Government now paying Rovers wages for a week + ? with British Taxpayers money and illegally financing a total non entity (money that will never be paid back to the treasury) and many blokes (good on them) getting nicely paid off thank you very much (who is kidding who here ?)


Fritz Von Maybe they should go into digital camera's inb big way ? Who had to stand up and be quiet a saturday moaning pictures as a kid during the National Anthem ?

Chaps

If they showed disrespect for the deceased head of one of the worlds major religions in the sure knowledge that it would offend other people, then yes they deserve punishment with the assistance of the law.

The same applies to any two minute silence which is done as a mark of respect.

The behaviour was loutish and is indefensible.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
they deserve punishment with the assistance of the law.

It's going to be interesting to see how "the law" handles this one, and in particular exactly what they were arrested for.

If they were arrested for booing then I doubt a successful prosecution will happen - they were at a football match after all and with perhaps 1500-2000 booing during the minutes silence and perhaps 30,000 shouting sectarian bile afterwards it's difficult to see why those 6 were singled out. If there is evidence of them shouting sectarian abuse then they may well be prosecuted succesfully under one of the new laws created recently in Scotland for this purpose.

Steve

I would think you could get them quite easily.

In todays local paper, two Swindon girls have been sucessfully prosecuted for telling a Kosovan to get back home and stop wasting our taxes. Such precedents have now been been set.

Also, breach of the peace as well as public order. It really is time this sort of behaviour was stamped down upon.

Regards

Mick

Mick

Please accept that you know sod all about sectarianism. Your example was a breach of the peace and racist abuse for which they were rightly convicted. It would also happen on the streets of Glasgow.

The SFA instigated the sectarianism and should be brought to book for it.

They also condone the flying of the Irish Tricolour over Parkhead instead of the St Andrew's Cross or Union Flag.

Please stick to what you know. Purchasing, coffee, V&B and dead cows.

LTD

There is NO excuse for chanting during a formal two minute silence, no matter who you are or whatever your background.

If you do not punish it, it will happen time and time again with all the lack of respect and decency it entails.

Mick

Silence as a mark of respect for something you don't personally respect is a bit of a joke, not to mention an imposition. Better surely to do away with this nonsence - or should we be broadening the terms of reference for silences? A hour a week should do it.

Mick

To enforce a religious respect on people from another religion is sectarianism at it's finest.

As I said, stick to what you know.

When one considers ex British PM Benjamin Disraeli having to renounce his Judaeism to enter office, and Jewish folk only being allowed to take office after 1947, and when one considers the 4 Democratically elected Westmister MP's of TODAY who may not sit in the House as they haven't sworn allegiance to the Queen, one does really wonder sometimes Our Mick, innit ?


Fritz Von The Law though innit

LTD

I am not a catholic and I would not dream of abusing a two minute silence for the Pope or for that matter any religious leader. It is offensive to the followers of that religion.

Mick

I will be very suprised indeed in the inevitable
event of the Archbishop of Canterbury's death that sporting occassions in England hold a silent minute, never mind Scotland.

Fritz Von Can't remember Jim Callaghan being honoured, though when Maggie goes, crocodile tears will flow for weeks in fleet street. Our Mick ! Those folk who waited for bloody hours at the Royal wedding in order to loudly Boo the hippy couple were traitors I assume ?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
I am not a catholic and I would not dream of abusing a two minute silence for the Pope or for that matter any religious leader.

Mullah Omar? Ayatollah Khomeini? David Koresh? L. Ron Hubbard? Jim Jones? Anton LaVey?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Also, breach of the peace as well as public order.

Breach of the peace for booing while at a football match? I think that'd be a difficult one to make stick, don't you? As I said earlier I think it'll come down to exactly what they did as if it was only booing then why weren't the other 1500-2000 Hearts fans doing the same arrested, and if it was for sectarian chanting then why weren't the 30,000 Celtic fans doing the same arrested?

So far the only details are that 6 fans were arrested for "sectarian breach of the peace". I wouldn't be too surprised if the charges are quietly dropped at a later date...

quote:

Originally posted by long-time-dead:
The SFA instigated the sectarianism and should be brought to book for it.

The SFA originally stated that no team would be forced to hold a silence but later backed down after pressure from the media etc. IMHO the media only wanted the minutes silence so that they'd have something to report when it was disturbed - Celtic and Hearts didn't dissapoint...

quote:

They also condone the flying of the Irish Tricolour over Parkhead instead of the St Andrew's Cross or Union Flag.

I have no issue with that as long as it's policed consistently. I've never heard of fans being ejected from a ground for flying the flag of the Irish Republic at Scottish football matches, but there have been instances of fans being ejected for flying the flag of Northern Ireland.

There was even a case recently where the BBC had to apoligise after one it's Blue Peter presenters (from Northern Ireland) said, during an article on designing an airline logo, that she'd choose her national flag. Several people contacted the complaints authority and claimed that was sectarian! How can a national flag of one of the states of the United Kingdom be regarded as sectarian?

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
LTD

There is NO excuse for chanting during a formal two minute silence, no matter who you are or whatever your background.

So if Saddam Hussain or Osama Bin Laden dies and a middle east state were playing England afterwards you'd be happy to observe the minutes silence then?

BTW it wasn't a two-minute silence, it was supposed to be one minute and actually only lasted 18 seconds.

quote:

Originally posted by HTK:
Silence as a mark of respect for something you don't personally respect is a bit of a joke, not to mention an imposition.

That's also my opinion. For example I have absolutely no respect for the Royal family however I fully expect that a mandatory minutes silence will be imposed on all football matches in Scotland when the English queen dies. Were I at a game that day I would observe it - out of respect for my club - but I still think it's an imposition. Same would be true if a political leader who had disgusted me in their time in office (Blair for example) was to die.

In my opinion as well as doing good works the Pope allowed, supported or helped cover up some terrible things and as such I also had very limited respect for him.

Many Hearts fans have stated that they were not booing the pope but instead were booing because of what they regarded as the unfair imposition of a minutes silence.

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
It is offensive to the followers of that religion.

If the followers of that religion really felt strongly about it then they're welcome to pay their respects somewhere appropriate, such as in church or at a public service of commemoration. A football match is no place for religion and in the past that has been clearly stated by the SFA and the Scottish Executive.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve G:
So if Saddam Hussain or Osama Bin Laden dies and a middle east state were playing England afterwards you'd be happy to observe the minutes silence then?

No Middle Eastern state would regret the passing of either of these two, let alone hold a minute's silence.

Regards
Steve M