How to get off a speeding ticket

er yes,
but they pulled out on the assumption that the car in the main road was doing the relevant limit. As such, true in that they did misread the limit, but in the crashes I dealt with i could prove excess speed on the vehicles using the main road via AIM analysis, hence the recommendation the camera were put in, because the assumption was made that just not these cars were speeding. Other data was gathered via other equipment to confirm out thoughts. I didn't play at it!

In any case, I'll take anything that reduces crashes, even in this instance. If the above measures reduced crashes, then they were effective. If a car pulling out is hit by a car exceeding the speed limit, the speeder would have to accept 'part' of the blame. innapropriate speed for the conditions is driving without due care, as it was in these intances. Hence the pulling out vehicle and the speeding vehicle had to share liability, although I agree with you the vehicle pulling out held sway in this area.

Also the road layout had alot to do with each t junction, and it was not easily engineered out. In all case you either come over a brow/round a bend etc prior to the junction in question where the crashes took place. hence also my earlier post re not knowing whats round a bend until you get there etc etc All the camreas locations are pre warned by permanent signs, too, so what more do you want?

andy c!

quote:

Originally posted by andy c:
In all case you either come over a brow/round a bend

well you've changed the circumstances somewhat here. If the people pulling out can't actually see what's coming it's a rather different story to those who pull out and just assume that what they've seen is moving at a given speed.
Any reason why a roundabout wouldn't work on these junctions?

not changed the circs at all, and no need for an island, provided people came round the bend at the relevant speed limit. I never explained the road layouts, did I? You may have made assumptions the roads were straight etc!!!

If you come over the brow of a hill at 30mph and then at 40mph and then at 50mph, the differances in reaction time, braking distance etc are obvious.

besides, you are asking me to justify an action which actually resulted in a reduction in crashes due to the imposition of speed cameras. it would appear to me that someone has got this message and has slowed down, haven't they?

There is more than one way to skin the proverbial dog, and this one worked.

Interesting how you imply critique rather than acknowledge it worked. Also don't forget you don't install cameras using the police. They are installed by camera partnerships, which in our language means the council, highways agency and other agencies.

andy c!

quote:

Interesting how you imply critique rather than acknowledge it worked.

Like you say, used properly and they can be useful. If only the rest were either in such locations or put in for similar reasons.
The reason I was wondering why other solutions weren't used is that the camera still hasn't made the junction itself any safer, and won't stop those who don't care about cameras.

quote:

Also the road layout had alot to do with each t junction, and it was not easily engineered out. In all case you either come over a brow/round a bend etc prior to the junction in question where the crashes took place. hence also my earlier post re not knowing whats round a bend until you get there etc etc All the camreas locations are pre warned by permanent signs, too, so what more do you want?

The permanent camera signs only tell you that there is likely to be a camera within 1km of the last sign you see. That'll most likely be a few hundred metres after the hazardous junction on the straight bit that follows, where drivers can increase their speed in safety.

A camera would work if there was a red triangular warning sign announcing the dangerous junction with the sign "danger" beneath. You often see such signs in France. A sign warning of the exact distance to the camera that's placed immediately before the junction would help too.

"Speed camera 200 yards." + posted speed limit repeater sign would be highly effective but not from a revenue collection POV.

A repeater sign could also be printed on the casing of each camera, surrounded in bright yellow reflective paint.

PS: Re. Exceeding the speed limit upon a junction and hitting the vehicle that pulls out on you, am I to take this that once you exceed a limit you automatically waive your right of way?

Judging the speed of on-coming traffic at junctions is a very basic skill, and if you can't manage it you shouldn't be driving (unless it's a blind junction - see above comments.)

Steve

Your attitude to road safety suggests that the sooner you lose your driving license the better.

You are clearly unfit to drive on psychological grounds. The severity of your symptoms suggest no cure is possible at present. Walk away from your taxi before somebody gets (badly) hurt.

Nime

Yesterday, I withdrew myself from this debate but what I have read since simply beggars belief.

Cars don’t cause accidents, roads don’t cause accidents, people cause accidents, drivers cause accidents by driving badly. If you can’t see over the brow of a hill or round a blind bend then you should drive slowly whatever the posted speed limit.

Now you will all say Yes, I know that, I do that but the fact is loads don’t. Education does not work so fear of fines, of penalty points, of losing your licence is used instead. This catches the bad driver and the good driver equally (but does a good driver habitually exceed posted speed limits?).

But this takes the biscuit:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
[QUOTE] A sign warning of the exact distance to the camera that's placed immediately before the junction would help too.

"Speed camera 200 yards." + posted speed limit repeater sign would be highly effective but not from a revenue collection POV.

A repeater sign could also be printed on the casing of each camera, surrounded in bright yellow reflective paint.

So Steve, there you are tear-arsing through the urban landscape at whatever speed takes you fancy, ignoring posted speed limits at your whim, and you want several warnings of when it would be a good idea to adhere to the speed limit so you won't get a ticket?

Why not ask for another sign after the camera telling you the distance to the next so you can put your foot down again?

I had a minor moral moment just now.

The village has a radar controlled speed sign that lights up to tell you your speed of apprach to the 50k (30mph) limit. Just after this sign is a sharp blind bend then a very long wide straight into the village proper.

A huge lorry was parked almost on the blind bend unloading furniture as I passed coming along the long straight from the village.

As I rounded the corner a driver was approaching at the right speed and I flagged him down with a wave out of the window. He braked gently and crept round the corner safely to avoid the unexpected obstruction.

The next vehicle approached the radar sign in the high 70's kph(which is alas rather typical) Did I wave him down? Did I bølløcks!

So you were not out to protect the lorry, its driver, anyone helping to unload it and the furniture, or anyone coming the other way then?

It would just be collateral damage in your war against speeding, wouldn't it?

quote:

Your attitude to road safety suggests that the sooner you lose your driving license the better.

You are clearly unfit to drive on psychological grounds. The severity of your symptoms suggest no cure is possible at present. Walk away from your taxi before somebody gets (badly) hurt.

How do you make that out? Vitriol alert methinks.

quote:

So Steve, there you are tear-arsing through the urban landscape at whatever speed takes you fancy, ignoring posted speed limits at your whim, and you want several warnings of when it would be a good idea to adhere to the speed limit so you won't get a ticket?

Personally I wouldn't need such warnings in my locality as I'd know the blind junction is there. I drive defensively - that means slowing down if I see someone (or if I can't see that someone because the junction is obscured by a bend or blind summit) that may be approaching the junction, just in case they pull out

It isn't about avoiding tickets is it? Prevention is better than detection from purely a safety and non revenue-raising pov. The above suggestion is one that may cut accidents at an obvious blackspot without raising any revenue.

Is the most effective camera the one that never goes off or the one that rakes in the cash?

quote:

Why not ask for another sign after the camera telling you the distance to the next so you can put your foot down again?

If the road is straight amnd devoid of blind spots until the next hazard, why indeed not?

quote:

If you can’t see over the brow of a hill or round a blind bend then you should drive slowly whatever the posted speed limit.

Agreed!

quote:

Originally posted by Nime:
I had a minor moral moment just now.

The village has a radar controlled speed sign that lights up to tell you your speed of apprach to the 50k (30mph) limit. Just after this sign is a sharp blind bend then a very long wide straight into the village proper.

A huge lorry was parked almost on the blind bend unloading furniture as I passed coming along the long straight from the village.

As I rounded the corner a driver was approaching at the right speed and I flagged him down with a wave out of the window. He braked gently and crept round the corner safely to avoid the unexpected obstruction.

The next vehicle approached the radar sign in the high 70's kph(which is alas rather typical) Did I wave him down? Did I bølløcks!

How childish was that? You should grow up. How you can find a way of using the word 'moral' in the above, beats me, because you have none if that's the case.

If you keep to the speed limit the lorry driver/anyone else helping to unload deserve not to be hit. If you don't keep to the speed limit you deserve for the death or injury of the above to be on your conscience. Some morality that!

Any normal, sane person would warn the speeder of the hazard ahead.

Pathological speed control freak alert!

eee theres nowt that creates more debate than driving attitudes, eh?

Re the question about considering the use of an island at the juction in question... that basically comes down to cost and also the crash site itself.

It is cheaper to put up a speed camera and the respective signs, rather than engineer in a traffi island. Also in some cases the junctions in question don't lend themselves to such a solution.

andy c!

A bit off the thread but relevant, at least I think so:

One of the best books I,ve read is "Roadcraft", it's available at all good book shops, costs about a tenner. You won't regret it believe me

It could save your life!!!

Justyn.

When you get off the ticket: From Bristol Evening Rag sorry Post

KEEP QUIET, AND WE'LL QUASH YOUR CONVICTION
Next Story | Previous Story | Back to list

11:02 - 08 September 2005
Motorists who were wrongly convicted of speeding at a speed camera site near Bristol could get their convictions quashed. A group of 13 motorists who are fighting the conviction have been offered a deal by the Avon and Somerset Safety Camera Partnership - the organisation which runs the cameras.

If they settle, it could have ramifications for more than 200 other drivers who were also fined for breaking the speed limit on a stretch of the A370 near Flax Bourton.

But one of the group - Richard Barclay from Backwell - is annoyed the settlement includes a gagging clause and that he would be saddled with his own legal costs.

Last year, Bryan Dunthorne, from Lockleaze, and John Hatton, from Weston-super-Mare, both successfully overturned their speeding convictions brought against them after they were snapped outside the village near the end of the Long Ashton bypass.

The partnership is offering to remove penalty points from the licences and return fines if the motorists involved bear the legal costs and there is no publicity about the settlement.

The settlement would take place between the partnership and the group to avoid a judicial review.

Mr Barclay, one of the group being represented by Bath-based solicitors Simon West, appealed to drivers who suspected they were wrongly convicted to come forw a rd .

Mr Barclay, who was given three points on his licence and fined £60 after being caught by a mobile unit in September 2003 on the Long Ashton bypass near Flax Bourton, said: "I thought it was disgraceful when I heard they would only agree to settle with us if they had no p u bl i c i t y.

"I was told by my solicitor that in order to proceed I will have to pay more legal fees and agree to this gagging order.

"One of the reasons I am doing this is out of principle, not just to get the £60 back, as I have already had to fork out a lot of money to get this far.
They have already admitted they got it wrong in other cases.

"It's as if they are trying to deter people from going on with the court action. If I was fighting this on my own I would be facing a bill for more than £1,000 in legal costs, and the three points will be off my licence in a year anyway.

"I have said I am not prepared to go ahead with the case unless they lift the ban on publicity.

"Others from the group of 13 have also decided not to continue under those terms." Simon West Solicitors say they are still waiting for instructions from their clients about whether they want to make a settlement with the partnership, or apply for a judicial review.

That will mean the process of law under which the drivers were convicted will be examined.

In a letter to Mr Barclay, Simon West said: "The terms of their agreement would be that each side bear its own costs and there be no p u bl i c i t y.
" It is usual for a settlement to go ahead without publicity.

Mr Barclay said: "I feel that it is a simple matter of them giving us our money back in the same way a shop would if you were overcharg ed.

"There's no grey area, it seems straightforward enough. They got it wrong and should correct their mistake, but instead want to hide behind smoke and mirrors.

"What galls me even more is that I was caught by two police officers operating a mobile speed camera, and I wonder whether it is the best use of the constabulary's res o u rc e s. " Dave Gollicker, spokesman for the Safety Camera Partnership, said: "We cannot make a comment about this because the legal action is still going on."

quote:

One of the best books I,ve read is "Roadcraft",

don't be silly. Why would people who know everything there is to know about driving need to read a book?

Seriously though, it's no good just reading it - you need to go out with someone like Andy to see how it works in practice.

John,
i have nightmares now about that book. Back in the days when God were a lad I had to learn verbatim the relevant definitions, as part of my advanced driving course. I can strill reel em off now:

"The system of car control is a system or drill, each feature of which is considered by the driver upon the approach to a hazard" &

"A hazard is anything which contains an element of actual or potential danger"...

so there ROFL...

Seriously I did a commentary for Roger P and Ernie last year when we did a factory visit, on the way there opn a fairly simple road - they were amazed at the level of Obs skills we had to take in etc...

The one thing Roadcraft does need is constant practice - it isn't to be played at IMV.

andy c!

John,

I,ve been fortunate enough to have had some advanced lessons:

It all started when I bought my last bike, Honda were giving away a free two day course for any bike over 600cc.

It was absoulutley pissing down so I was the only person who turned up out of 4 with two advanced motorcyclists to educate me.

I ended up joining my local RoSPA, bit nervous at first but one of the best things I,ve ever done. The local traffic police (bikers), are very willing to help out and ride with the outings, out of uniform of course and in their own time.

Justyn.

quote:

The one thing Roadcraft does need is constant practice - it isn't to be played at IMV.

yes it does, and it's damn hard to get it right. I really don't drive enough at the moment to do it justice, although I've almost managed to get myself out of the habit of braking into corners. Using more acceleration sense helps there. Downhill corners are still a problem though. I'm guessing I need to brake a little more to allow for the car's acceleration while shifting.

Justyn, have you done their test yet or are you still in practice mode?

John,

Folk don't grasp easily the correct cornering technique - I struggled for the 1st week at that and then it dropped into place - its the misconception that your going too slow into the bend when in fact if you set the car/bike up properly you actually complete the bend a lot smoother, and therefore faster, If you get my drift (Ouch)

andy c!

Are you still talking about road or track driving here John?

John,

Apart from the rides, I,m having lessons once a month from one of the group. (Consists of a full day out, stop for breakfast/chat, luch/chat etc .Since starting it's made me realise how much more there is to biking /driving.)

It's taught me a lot, and made my driving a lot less stressfull. But no less quicker - just more relaxed and focused.

Obviously my ultimate aim is to acheive Gold standard but the standard required is extremely high. (I,m talking about the bike tests only mind - but I believe the method is exactly the same for cars).

Justyn.

quote:

Folk don't grasp easily the correct cornering technique

true enough, I just need more practice. The main problem is finding quiet roads anywhere near here.

quote:

Are you still talking about road or track driving here John?

definitely road at this point. I wasn't trail braking as such, just braking and shifting at the same time and then hovering on the brake just in case.

quote:

Obviously my ultimate aim is to acheive Gold standard but the standard required is extremely high.

and then some. I was graded on my last course at bronze level... and then got the checklist of what I needed to improve on. It's depressing really. As you say, though, it really does make your driving/riding so much less stressful if you're anticipating all the idiots and other assorted hazards rather than reacting to them.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Toy:
If you keep to the speed limit the lorry driver/anyone else helping to unload deserve not to be hit. If you don't keep to the speed limit you deserve for the death or injury of the above to be on your conscience. Some morality that!

Any normal, sane person would warn the speeder of the hazard ahead.

Pathological speed control freak alert!

Wrong. I simply didn't have time to warn the speeding moron anyway because of the approach speed of our two vehicles. My 30mph plus his 50 mph gives an approach speed of 80mph.

Nor am I responsible for retarded, suicidal lorry drivers or murderous speeding motorists.

This pleasant area of the village houses primarily families with children. Little kids on bicycles are a common sight along this stretch.

Let's see how high your moral ground looks when almost every motorist ignores the radar warning screen and the large yellow flashing lights indicating a higher than legal speed.

I have passed this way in both directions a minimum of twice a day 350 days a year for nearly ten years. The yellow warning lights flash more than they don't. I find this lax attitude to speed limits and others lives simply outrageous!

Life's choices are taken by those who take them. Not by the unhappy witnesses to their utter stupidity and lack of responsibilty!

Has Roadcraft been updated to take account of "modern" technology like disc brakes. ABS, synchromesh, power assistance, 4 wheel drive...?

Nigel,

"Roadcraft" is relevant irrespective of the vehicle you are driving. It is based on sound driving principles whether on a bike or car. One purpose of Roadcraft is to enable you to anticipate potential hazards at the earliest possible oportunity therefore giving you time to react in a controlled manner. It may sound obvious I know but by practicing the lessons in the book you'd be suprised how much more information you can obtain from the road markings and signs which have always been there.

Buy a copy and try it, I think you'd be suprised.

Regards

Justyn.