Wanna talk about abortion?

quote:

Originally posted by Rasher:
Whether contraception is the same thing or not, I'd have to say that it isn't, but I guess that depends on whether conception actually takes place momentarily or not. If it is totally preventitive, then I guess it's okay. (?).

Supercap?

Rasher - I can understand your personal view - however the issue is should you view be imposed on every one in the land.

The involved women should be the only person who makes the decision - not a politician, not a religious person - only the female involved - it is her body, it is not the business of any one else.

Derek
That's rubbish.

Contraception cannot definitely prevent conception - it depends on the type. For example the combined pill works by inhibiting ovulation therefore conception cannot occur. However, a copper intra-uterine device (coil) doesn't hence some people having concerns about them if their opinion is that life begins with conception (not implantation).

As for whether to agree or disagree, that's the woman's choice. Increasingly doctors are refusing to do termination counselling due to religious and/or being against abortion. My own view is that we should help the woman at a hugely vulnerable time make an informed choice, not take issue with the rights & wrongs...

Why is it rubbish?

Sorry but I'm with Rasher on this one. As far as I'm concerned, fertilised embryos are little people who don't have a voice. There are no circumstances where their right to life is overridden by the mother's.

To me, it's murder.

Bob - it may be your opinion - but it is not mine.

I have an equal right to my opinion as you have to your opinion - to use the word rubbish is immature, emotional and insulting and shows a lack of mature thought.

This is one of the things we have Government for: to decide what is legal and what is not.

Either way you might not like the outcome.

I have no moral objection to abortion within a legal framewrok.

quote:

Originally posted by Derek Wright:
Rasher - I can understand your personal view - however the issue is should you view be imposed on every one in the land.

The involved women should be the only person who makes the decision - not a politician, not a religious person - only the female involved - it is her body, it is not the business of any one else.

I was careful to say that this was only my opinion, and I accept that it is a difficult subject and we all see things differently. It is the responsibility of both parents however, and I think extremely arrogant when women suggest that it's their body and therefore no-one else's business. We are talking about a childs life, not a bodily function.
What brought it home to me a while back was a friend who visited a spiritualist for some reason or other, and they picked up that they had an abortion many years ago. They said that the child had now grown in the afterlife and was a happy soul and that they were looking over her (the mother) lovingly, and that everything was fine.
Now...whether I believe in this or not is irrelevant, but it shocked me to be presented with a concept that I hadn't considered before, and the idea of this got me thinking. I like the idea of this and, true or not, it is a concept that appeals to me and fits with my own belief system and sense of what is right. What this concept has given me is the background with which to make a decision about where to draw the line with regard to my own moral code. I accept that it is a bit "out there" and wouldn't want to impose this personal philosophy on anyone, still not entirely sure myself, so accept that we all have differing ideas.
I can't accept that it only the womans business though.
Legal? What's that got to do with it?

Rasher

Spiritualists are charlatans of the worse kind.

I read the 'Fourth procedure' by Stanley Pottinger' which is a thriller but it deals very effectively with the whole pro-life, pro-choice debate.

The story is centered on N.Y. congressman Jack MacLeod and organ transplant pioneer Dr. Rachel Redpath, each of whom has lost a loved one to a back-alley abortionist and has made rabid pro-choice politics a priority. This commitment is shared by Rachel's best friend who is Jack's live-in lover, Victoria, a Washington, D.C., lawyer who defends battered women.

Victoria dies while pregnant with Jacks child and bizarrely Dr. Rachel Redpath then transplants the whole womb in to the body of Chief Justice, Abner Titus a rabid pro-lifer. The Judge, a patient of Redpath's believes he having surgery for another condition is a large man who does not know of the transplant until the doctor tells him about it.

Now comes the interesting part - the Judge the rabid pro-lifer demands an abortion and Jack the rabid pro-choicer (wanting his baby)tries to stop him and both seek court orders to get their way. Their positions are completely reversed!

It is easy to see that even the most rabid supporters of either side can quickly change their views of how we should all be bound by the same law without exception when we are the one who is personally effected. It may well be that anyone who is fanatically for one side or the other just lacks the ability to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

I think abortion is wrong but is it right to force people by law and threat to have an unwanted child?

What about rape victims?

What about the inevitable rise of back street abortions?

What about a woman's right to her own body?

The pro-choice, pro-life debate is probably the most agonising dilemma I know of and there are no easy answers.

I wish I'd been an abortion.

The idea that life is always worth pursuing is nonsense.

There are lots of reasons why a pregnancy should not be allowed to reach full term - including the parents not wanting it. A lot of crap with no scientific basis is talked about this subject. Obviously the termination should be carried out as early as possible, but that's it.

Fucking hell its like a teen forum this place.

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Rasher

Spiritualists are charlatans of the worse kind.

Probably right Nigel, but that wasn't my point. It just presented a concept to me that I hadn't considered before, which I found interesting.

I wouldn't know Gary

quote:

Originally posted by Nigel Cavendish:
Rasher

Spiritualists are charlatans of the worse kind.

I believe Spiritualists are charlatans too but I doubt they are charlatans of the worst kind - warmongering politicians such as Bush and Blair who posture as Christians are the worst kind of charlatans. I suppose some Spiritualists do help some people who are gullible maybe if their minds are put at rest even by a lie I guess they are happy nonetheless. I would prefer the truth but not everyone can handle the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:
The pro-choice, pro-life debate is probably the most agonising dilemma I know of and there are no easy answers.

As someone who, from time to time, has to help people deal with this - Agreed.

James

quote:

Originally posted by garyi:
Fucking hell its like a teen forum this place.

I always find hifi forums are the best place to thrash out these complex moral issues. By the same token, George Moore's Principia Ethica is a mine of useful information about speaker placement.

Well, you know, I think a lot of people would have been better off if they hadn't been born. Simple as that really.

[Harry Hill] There's only one way to sort this out... FIGHT!!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Well, you know, I think a lot of people would have been better off if they hadn't been born. Simple as that really.

... and to add insult to injury a bunch of tree-huggers are trying to stop us preventing further inauspicious births.

I cannot imagine not having my 3 children. 1 was a possible termination albeit a very very remote chance. I am not against abortion per se the controls in place seem to be right.
My major problem with the debate is this "it's a person at the instant of conception" it's a blob of unformated cells and it's independent "life" would be 0 seconds.Plus the fact that these anti people should decide for some one else, have your views sure and demonstrate and lobby,but killing people who are not "pro life" seems at the least ironic.

Howard

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
I wish I'd been an abortion.

The idea that life is always worth pursuing is nonsense.

There are lots of reasons why a pregnancy should not be allowed to reach full term - including the parents not wanting it. A lot of crap with no scientific basis is talked about this subject. Obviously the termination should be carried out as early as possible, but that's it.

I agree with this absolutely. Not one word out of place, and I wish my parents had had the sense to prevent my reaching term. Subsequently both made my childhood a misery, and both, independantly, told me that I was a mistake and a regrettable one at that. In fact I wish nither of them had not reached term either with hindsight. The world would have a been a tiny bit better a place. And my brothrer would not have been born, and so even better. No comment on my own contribution!

Clearly if parents don't want a baby they should prevent conception, but once conception has occured they should have the legal sanction to prevert the embryo reaching term. The Law is reasonable in UK on this after long debate and gradual adjustement.

Fredrik

Fredrik,

I accept that you may have gone through hell, but I do not accept that you are to blame for that misery.

From the moment conception has occurred, there is a life and a consciousness. It might be very basic but it is there. It might be a bunch of unformatted cells, but that's merely the first part of growth. It doesn't make you any less human. If it's illegal to kill you at 10 months, it should be illegal to kill you at 2 months - inside a womb or out.

People go on about my attitude being unscientific, emotive, but that's just their way of trying to absolve themselves of the responsibility of dealing with the issue. I accept that many children are born into an ugly world, that many are unwanted, but this is not their fault. They should at least be given the opportunity to try at life, and perhaps shed some light in a dark place.

I value your contributions to this site Fredrik and the forum would be a poorer place without you. If you can contribute that much on just a website where you barely know people, you must be worth a lot more in your main way of life. I'm sure there are people around you who would agree with me that the world is a better place for having you around.

Howard,

I absolutely agree that Pro-Lifers should not take violent action against Pro-Choicers. That's just as wrong as anything else of a long list of wrong things that people have done to other people over the ages...