Wanna talk about abortion?
Posted by: Rasher on 27 April 2007
You obviously do as it keeps being mentioned by a certain few, so let's have it.
Can it ever be justified? Let's get it over with.
My own personal opinion:
Being a father of three, I know that my children are not a "product" of their parents but are little individuals. It is not for me to decide whether they should live or die once they have been concieved, so I am opposed, but I might be swayed into accepting that exceptional circumstances might justify abortion even though I can't imagine what those circumstances might be.
Whether contraception is the same thing or not, I'd have to say that it isn't, but I guess that depends on whether conception actually takes place momentarily or not. If it is totally preventitive, then I guess it's okay. (?).
Can it ever be justified? Let's get it over with.
My own personal opinion:
Being a father of three, I know that my children are not a "product" of their parents but are little individuals. It is not for me to decide whether they should live or die once they have been concieved, so I am opposed, but I might be swayed into accepting that exceptional circumstances might justify abortion even though I can't imagine what those circumstances might be.
Whether contraception is the same thing or not, I'd have to say that it isn't, but I guess that depends on whether conception actually takes place momentarily or not. If it is totally preventitive, then I guess it's okay. (?).
Parry 
is there no beginning to your talents?
is there no beginning to your talents?Hi Deane, thanks for the reference - and thank God he doesn't judge us on our intellectualism (or I'd be in a right fix!). Sure there are a lot of great laws, many in the Book of Deuteronomy. However, many of the laws in the Book of Leviticus (and other sources such as Malachi) are highly ceremonial, quite restrictive but served their purpose (the end justified their means).
At this point I must correct myself, I wrote that Jesus "threw away" the old laws. In fact Yeshua (Jesus) said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". In otherwords he fullfilled the intent of these laws, and on the behalf of us when we fail them (covering us from the curse of Adam).
That doesn't mean that we can't try as hard as humanly possible to fulfill the law where it applies to "loving God" and "loving one-another". Thankfully, while doing that we are living under Grace
Andrew
At this point I must correct myself, I wrote that Jesus "threw away" the old laws. In fact Yeshua (Jesus) said "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them". In otherwords he fullfilled the intent of these laws, and on the behalf of us when we fail them (covering us from the curse of Adam).
That doesn't mean that we can't try as hard as humanly possible to fulfill the law where it applies to "loving God" and "loving one-another". Thankfully, while doing that we are living under Grace
Andrew
quote:Originally posted by Andrew Randle:
[QUOTE] 1) No you didn't catch me out, and you swiftly changed subject to try and attack the Ten Commandments
I beg to differ. I did catch you out. Even a casual reading of this thread demonstrates it. Nor did I change the subject by ‘attacking’ the ten commandments as the sentence I quoted shows clearly ‘'For, truly I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not one iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of the commandments and teaches men so, shall he be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven
quote:2) Acad, as you will see, the first four commandments were to do with loving God. Is it morally right not to love your creator - who turned you from nothing into something?
I do not believe in the existence of God nor can I see any benefit in worshipping God even if he/she/it really exists. I do not believe that anything has ever come from nothing – not once ever in the entire history of the universe and you can not show that it has as it is scientifically and philosophically impossible.
quote:3) The last six Commandments were the first time these were written down explicitly as such. Only *some* may have been referred to earlier by an individual enlightened by God.
As I said, these commandments have existed in virtually every society that has ever existed. There have been countless societies where few if any believed in the existence of God much less where any were ‘enlightened’ by God yet still we see the variations of the golden rule long before Jesus ever turned up. It does not take a ‘Messiah’ to show that loving people is better for society than hating people.
quote:4) Tribal warfare, or the basic survival of God's final plan?
Are you saying it was God’s plan to divide and rule? To have a favourite ‘chosen’ people whom he would favour in battle at the cost of his other created children? This would be reasonable assumption to make if you believe in the literal word of the Bible.
Re. point 5 etc.
Here you seem to be employing some slight of hand. I said this: ‘As for the 'Golden Rule' of 'Loving thy neighbour' I think you will find several religious teachers beat him to it by er..some hundreds of years’ . It is clear I am referring to teachings that equal or surpass 'Loving thy neighbour' which were around before long before Jesus.
You then said ‘"For my reference (and I'm not asking this with the purpose of testing you), can you name them?
I did name them.
You also said ‘Particularly those that named "loving God" as a higher 'rule'". This is more slight of hand because as you know A/ I was talking about Jesus having no monopoly on ‘loving neighbours’ and B/ You know that numerous other religious teachers do NOT believe in God therefore they can not possibly advocate loving God as the highest rule (something I never mentioned). I did however, address this by saying ‘As for ‘Loving God’ as the pinnacle of what mankind might achieve I think it is nothing compared to the realisation of the Bodhisattva ideal in Buddhism. One wonders why God needs to be loved so much – is He lonely? Insecure?
Thus the points you make in 5a), 5b), 5c) do not apply. I never suggested that Zoroaster, Confucious or Buddha even believe in God much less advocate loving him as the highest pinnacle of human endeavour.
Another glaring mistake you make in 5a), 5b) and 5c) is to claim I was referring to teachings existing before the Ten Commandments when I clearly was referring to teachings before Jesus was born!! I wrote this: ‘As for the 'Golden Rule' of 'Loving thy neighbour' I think you will find several religious teachers beat him (Jesus) to it by er..some hundreds of years.
quote:6) In the last commandment he mentions the commandment in the context of servants. If you don't believe in servants, then let me suggest you quit your job (!!!).
I believe there is a difference between employee and servant.
quote:"Sound theological grounds" is a massive generalised assumption you make. In each instance of Biblical misuse you will see the selection of scripture placed out-of-context from the whole Bible - and used in a way to further their own agenda. Indeed I've seen this exact methodology used (or borrowed) in your own arguments...
You can not cherry pick teachings from the Bible and maintain the book is the word of God. Christians have done this since the earliest days of Christianity. The whole authority for believing what you believe is that the Bible is THE word of God – either it is or it is not or some of it is and some of it is not – if some of it is and some of it is not then how do we know which is and which is not? Are we free to cherry pick which teachings we want and which we do not want? Not according to God and not according to Jesus! You cant’ have your cake and eat it. The fact is the Bible is horribly confused and contradictory. The evidence is there for anyone to read.
quote:Try and reflect into the basis of your motives, and check whether they really are founded.
My motives are twofold: 1/ I am an annoying pedant and will pick you up on any ‘truth’ that is unsupportable and unprovable ’. If anyone here started banging on about Buddhism being the only solution to the problem of man’s suffering I would contradict him, even though I believe that his or her view is more credible than your view. My second motive is that I believe the US and to a lesser extent the UK is tooling up for yet more religious war and that vast sections of the US population are massively deluded and they in turn are infecting Christian fundamentalists in the UK. It is a common view amongst Christian fundamentalists that harmless compassionate Buddhism is the work of the devil. You can imagine what they think about Islam! Be sure the muslim world thinks the same about them. They can not both be right. In the fullness of time there may well be a winner and a loser in this war of ideas and much blood will be spilt before the end – I am therefore worried about the un-critical religious convictions of anyone who has stuff like 2 Thessalonians 1:16 in their ‘Holy Book’.
quote:I used to wonder that, particularly when it came to worship. However, ask yourself "how would I feel if my own children ignored me?"... There! Same thing!
So the all powerful, all wise, all loving God is not much better than a jealous father then? I agree. It is of course unthinkable that a fully enlightened being, would punish his or her children for being ignored.
My other comments about the Catholic Church were not directed at you Andrew - I should have put them in a separate post. Sorry for that.
I am afraid I still think that Christianity has a good to learn about love if they believe the Bible is a Holy book. Take the following for example:
Proverbs 13:14 24 He who spares the rod hates his son,
but he who loves him is careful to discipline him.
20:30 Blows and wounds cleanse away evil,
and beatings purge the inmost being.
23.13 Do not withhold discipline from a child;
if you punish him with the rod, he will not die
23:14 Punish him with the rod
and save his soul from death.
Exodus 21:15 "Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death .
Leviticus 20:9 'If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head.
Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death . You must purge the evil from among you. All Israel will hear of it and be afraid.
You may think all this psycho stuff is in the OT and not the NT but what do we see here?:
Mark 7:9 – 7:10 And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions! For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, ' Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.
Of course this quote further hammers your view that Jesus left behind all OT Laws and Commandments.
Mathew 15:4 For God said, 'Honor your father and mother' and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death .
My point here is how can we possible use the NT much less the OT as a blue print for modelling human behaviour when to do so will put us back thousands of years to a time of mindless superstition, fear and abuse on a er.. biblicle scale?
What about?
2 Thessalonians 1:16
or John 15:6 'If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned'.
Hardly surprising then that ‘Great Compassionate Hearts’ like St. Augustine could conclude it was doing God’s work to torture heretics, while Aquinas thought it Right to burn them to death.
It is high time that Christianity gets off it's High Throne and realises that the solutions it offers are solutions very often to problems that it has caused. Christianity has much to learn from other religions when it comes to love and compassion. I hope it learns fast. Islam too. They are as bad as each other in my view. The justification for anything can be found in the Bible or the Koran - its all just a question of cherry picking!
quote:Originally posted by Andrew Randle:
[QUOTE]
[QUOTE] If you do not believe that anything has ever come from nothing, then where do you think the universe came from? Matter and anti-matter? Good, so where did the matter and anti-matter come from?...
Cause and effect. Everything is cause and effect. Something can not come from nothing. Prove that it can and you get a big fat Nobel prize. Scientists have theories about what happened fractions of a second after the big bang but they don't know what caused the big bang. Inventing a creator God to fill in the missing gap is an intellectual cop-out imo. There is a theory called the 'Big Bounce' where a universe collapses in on itself before exploding outwards again - I suspect something like this is the answer. This theory is supported by some religions.
quote:By the way, there is no verse 16 in 2 Thessalonians 1.
This is the quote:
God's Judgment and Glory
We must always thank God for you, brothers, which is fitting, since your faith is flourishing, and the love of every one of you for one another is increasing. Therefore we ourselves boast about you among God's churches—about your endurance and faith in all the persecutions and afflictions you endure. It is a clear evidence of God's righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God's kingdom, for which you also are suffering, since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you , and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of everlasting destruction, away from the Lord's presence and from His glorious strength ,in that day when He comes to be glorified by His saints and to be admired by all those who have believed, because our testimony among you was believed. And in view of this, we always pray for you that our God will consider you worthy of His calling, and will, by His power, fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith, so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified by you, and you by Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
quote:Wrong, a misinterpretation of the Bible is not God-inspired, but usually driven by someone with vested interests.
I am impressed that you have managed to interpret correctly where so many saints before you have clearly got it wrong.
