Wanna talk about abortion?

It's like Victoria Wood said: 'Giving birth is like trying to get a large sofa through a small door, except that in 16 years time the sofa isn't going to turn round and say 'I didn't ask to be born, you know!'

Dear Joe!

My father died in 1999, and I did not attend his funeral. That would have been a hypocritical thing to do, and might have indicated a mending of fences which never happened in spite of my efforts to at least get to a normal possibility of a polite phone call now and then. I last spoke to my mother in August 1997...

I have no issue with parents, unsuitable to bring children up, being even positively advised to terminate, among a number of other scenarios where abhortion is a better course of action than bringing another [unwanted or impossible to sustain] life into this world. There are billions of other people, and so one or two not born in a few famillies can be nothing but a good thing in my view. Once born then the situation is entirely different of course...

I was born in 1961...

Fredrik.

Dear Frank,

I can definately say that I would not always have had the courage to face life without my very good handfull of "Super-friends" whom I value above everything else. My sister-in-law and my Norwegian Aunt among them. I am sure that they love me too, and so I could never get out the world while I have such people who would be devasted if I left.

Recently I took a good friend to the Airport in the middle of April and he was quite canny in picking up a suppressed despair in me over my then unemployent. I wanted [and still do want] to show him my little Village where I grew up just in Herefordshire, and the little church I went to occasionally, and even occasional sad times for a funeral or two of good friends.

Yes even in small communities one can be hit by untimely young deaths. He flatly refused saying that I had to show him all this when he returned, and strangely he was right without me saying a word about it all. There is plenty of time now, but I wanted to show him this part of my early life with its happy connotations outside the familly home, just in case the dispair overwhelmed me, which poissibilty I could see at that very time all too clearly.

I posted on my Vodka Thread about my fear of not seeing my good friend again at the time, though not touching on why...

I think we all get slightly out of kilter when under serious preassure. Just my friend saw it and instinctively did the right thing. That is what a friend does and why they must be born in mind always...

Kindest regards from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
From the moment conception has occurred, there is a life and a consciousness.

No, consciousness requires a very highly developed brain. The brain does not begin to develop at all for some time after conception. For a long time the fertilised embryo has no more human feeling than an amoeba.

EW

Fredrik,

I'm a 1964 person. I was lucky enough to be brought up in a loving healthy environment with lots of family around me, so there is no way I can understand or even appreciate what you have been through.

People have always struggled with bringing up their children. Most see it as a joyous challenge. Some see it as a burden. Having started the process, their duty is to their children. How they deal with it affects that child's upbringing severely, but either way, once that child is alive, they don't have the choice - in my book - of killing it. Unfortunately the government doesn't agree with me, and I have to live with that.

Earwicker,

it doesn't matter that the brain is not developed. It is still a growing organism. It's not for you to make a judgement on when the child develops consciousness. All animals, even an amoeba, react consciously to stimuli such as heat, cold or light. They're all alive and that's what counts.

Currently reading "Collapse" by Jared Diamond. It deals with the collapse, or not, of societies on earth. One relevant case is Tikopia, a small island in the pacific which can sustainibly support about 1200 people. To keep population to this level they practiced seven methods of population control including abortion - induced by pressing on the belly or placing hot stones on the belly of a pregnant woman near term, and infanticide by burying alive, smothering or turning a newborn baby on it's face. Not a fan of abortion myself but can see a clear need in this case.

Regards,

Willy.

PS One of the other methods of population control was suicide!

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Fredrik,

I'm a 1964 person...

People have always struggled with bringing up their children. Most see it as a joyous challenge. Some see it as a burden. Having started the process, their duty is to their children....

I ompletely agree about this, and if I ever fathered a child, I am sure I would be a brilliant, firm, fair, and kind father, but I think what future for this child? It's bloody terrifying!

Kindst regards from Fredrik

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Fredrik,

I accept that you may have gone through hell, but I do not accept that you are to blame for that misery.

I value your contributions to this site Fredrik and the forum would be a poorer place without you. If you can contribute that much on just a website where you barely know people, you must be worth a lot more in your main way of life. I'm sure there are people around you who would agree with me that the world is a better place for having you around.

Wonderful post, Frank and I echo everything you have said here. Fredrik is one of the shining lights of this forum and his internet persona portrays him as a gentle and caring person who bears only good will. Never regret your birth Fredrik, as you have the opportunity to enrich the lives of those with whom you come into contact every day. It seems to me that you have a way of dealing with people that is a reaction to the way people treated you and thus you have extracted something positive from your own dark experiences.

As to the abortion debate, I cannot find a satisfactory answer myself as others have posted. It is not black and white in my opinion.

Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank Abela:
From the moment conception has occurred, there is a life and a consciousness.

quote:

No, consciousness requires a very highly developed brain. The brain does not begin to develop at all for some time after conception. For a long time the fertilised embryo has no more human feeling than an amoeba.

And the evidence for this is what exactly? I agree with Frank, the moment there is conception there is consciousness. Scientists do not have the slightest clue as to how consciousness emerges from the brain they merely dogmatically hold that it does.

quote:

Originally posted by Frank Abela:
even an amoeba, react consciously to stimuli such as heat, cold or light. They're all alive and that's what counts.

No they don't. It's like saying nastic movements in plants are "conscious" - they aren't. Consciousness is a phenomenon associated with having a brain. Plants are not conscious, nor are prokaryotes, nor are rapidly dividing bundles of as yet undifferentiated cells. Hence I care passionately about animal rights and don't give a rat crap what you do with a load of cells.

quote:

And the evidence for this is what exactly? I agree with Frank, the moment there is conception there is consciousness. Scientists do not have the slightest clue as to how consciousness emerges from the brain they merely dogmatically hold that it does.

It's still a bit of a mystery, but I think we can all agree you need a brain to be conscious. Computers might get there too one day...

EW

Abortion - or the early termination of pregnancy - is a quite ordinary medical procedure. My understanding is that it is indicated when the continuation of the pregnancy presents significant risk to the woman.

I suspect that what people who are anti-abortion are actually opposed to is too liberal an application of the concept of "significant risk" when that risk is psychological.

Myself, I am opposed to abortion if it is applied as a form of birth control. It is unconscionable to avoid responsibility for one's actions in this manner.

I am also opposed to abortion if it is resorted to in order to prevent the birth of a child who is "abnormal" - such as a child with Down Syndrome or Spina Bifida. I have been very closely associated with a woman who was born paraplegic as the result of a neural tube defect. She had the misfortune of overhearing her own mother at a party confess to a friend that she would have aborted her daughter if she had known of her birth "defect". (K___ died at 23 yrs due to a complication of her disability.)

When a pregnancy is the result of a rape or incest is the point at which I am unable to form any clear view of the subject.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

No they don't. It's like saying nastic movements in plants are "conscious" - they aren't. Consciousness is a phenomenon associated with having a brain. Plants are not conscious, nor are prokaryotes, nor are rapidly dividing bundles of as yet undifferentiated cells. Hence I care passionately about animal rights and don't give a rat crap what you do with a load of cells.

More briefly characterised as the difference between sapience and sentience.

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
It is unconscionable to avoid responsibility for one's actions in this manner.

So is condemning an as yet unborne person to life without a pigging good reason for it.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
[QUOTE]

It's still a bit of a mystery, but I think we can all agree you need a brain to be conscious. Computers might get there too one day...

EW

I think consciousness pervades the whole body and is not limited to the brain - One can identify this through meditation. I do not believe that consciousness is a mere epiphenomenon of the brain - far from being an emergent property of the brain, consciousness existed before the brain and continues after the brain - again, with training, this can be experinenced. It is more realistic to say that the brain comes from the mind not the other way round.

Even if it were true that one needs a brain to experience individualised consciousness this would not prove that the brain causes individual consciousness.

Many people have experienced 'out of body' awareness and experienced meditators can leave and return to their body at will - during this time a doctor would pronounce the person 'dead'.

There are many recorded instances of people being pronounced dead who return to their bodies and describe all that has happened in the room whilst supposedly dead!

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

So is condemning an as yet unborne person to life without a pigging good reason for it.

"unborne person"???

An intersting choice of words, Earwicker.

quote:

Originally posted by acad tsunami:

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Frank Abela:
From the moment conception has occurred, there is a life and a consciousness.

quote:

No, consciousness requires a very highly developed brain. The brain does not begin to develop at all for some time after conception. For a long time the fertilised embryo has no more human feeling than an amoeba.

And the evidence for this is what exactly? I agree with Frank, the moment there is conception there is consciousness. Scientists do not have the slightest clue as to how consciousness emerges from the brain they merely dogmatically hold that it does.

Not so. Whilst there is still a lot to be figured out there are soem very well developed theories on how the brain works and how we are conscious. As teh resolution of scanning tools improves these are gradually being proven. A good starting point in this is "On Intelligence" by Jeff Hawkins (he of Palm fame). Thoroughly good read.

Regards,

Willy.

PS There is also emerging evidence that brain cells (and therefore consciousness?) are in fact distributed in the body at key locations such as the heart.

quote:

Originally posted by Willy:

Not so. Whilst there is still a lot to be figured out there are soem very well developed theories on how the brain works and how we are conscious.

Willy

There may be many well develped theories of mind, but there is little consensus - and consensus is the heart of scientific progress.

It is important to make the point here that the pursuit of scientific knowledge purports to be value-free - unlike medicine.

The issue of abortion is medical and moral. Whether or not science informs part of the choice; it is still a matter of choice in the end. Science, being value-free, ought not dictate.

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:
"unborne person"???
An intersting choice of words, Earwicker.

Or interesting spelling mistake... sorry, I'm fading away. It's not been a good week!

quote:

Originally posted by Willy:
There is also emerging evidence that brain cells (and therefore consciousness?) are in fact distributed in the body at key locations such as the heart.

Really? There are neurones throughout the body, it's the fact that the brain can dynamically re-wire itself that results in the "consciousness effect", as I understand it. I don't think a few brain cells here and there will start contemplating the meaning of life the universe and everything, or even store any information.

EW

Or interesting spelling mistake... sorry, I'm fading away. It's not been a good week! ..Quote the ever happy Earwicker

Mr Earwicker .. I cannot ever recall you having a good week.

Actually I like having you around, it is miserable sods like you that make me realise how happy I am.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
Mr Earwicker .. I cannot ever recall you having a good week.

No, nor me.

quote:

Actually I like having you around, it is miserable sods like you that make me realise how happy I am.

Merry Christmas. How's Spain by the way?

Regards,

Earwicker

Earwicker

Spain is rather wet at the moment, in fact we are having better weather in Swindon.

Perhaps you should go out there, you could moan about the crappy Spanish weather, you would like that.

Regards

Mick

quote:

Originally posted by Deane F:

quote:

Originally posted by Willy:

Not so. Whilst there is still a lot to be figured out there are soem very well developed theories on how the brain works and how we are conscious.

Willy

There may be many well develped theories of mind, but there is little consensus - and consensus is the heart of scientific progress.

It is important to make the point here that the pursuit of scientific knowledge purports to be value-free - unlike medicine.

The issue of abortion is medical and moral. Whether or not science informs part of the choice; it is still a matter of choice in the end. Science, being value-free, ought not dictate.

Deane,

My post was to address Acad's assertion that scientist's don't have the slightest clue as to how consciousness emerges from the brain. They do.

IMHO not sure that the consciousness argument alone is a valid argument, certainly not in all cases as per my post on Tikopia.

Regards,

Willy.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by Willy:
There is also emerging evidence that brain cells (and therefore consciousness?) are in fact distributed in the body at key locations such as the heart.

Really? There are neurones throughout the body, it's the fact that the brain can dynamically re-wire itself that results in the "consciousness effect", as I understand it. I don't think a few brain cells here and there will start contemplating the meaning of life the universe and everything, or even store any information.

EW

On the contrary, brain cells are rather effective at storing (certain types) of information. Especially hierarchically constructed patterns. Just the sort of thing you need to "build" a consciousness.

Regards,

Willy.