Wanna talk about abortion?

Joe and Frank - both of you have got yourself into mind set that if abortion is allowed then all foetuses are aborted. Which is not true - there are some people that wish to breed for their own reasons - dynastic or status or acceptance that that is what happens when you get old and pair up.

So my existence has very little to do with my mother's view on abortion more on whether my parents had an expectation that having kids was what they wanted - although later on my existence was regretted on more than one occasion <g>. Patriotism may also have something to do with it as well as at the time the country was sending people off to war and there may be a feeling that people must breed to provide cannon fodder for the future.

The purpose of statute law is to remove the “moral” and “religious” from the exercise of action under the law.

No one is obliged to have an abortion, but where the law allows it they can.

Whether you like it or not, and for what reasons, is another issue.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90on't have sex outside marriage or until you are ready to accept the consequences of your actions if you do get pregnant.

Obviously there are some willing to adhere to this, which is fine - I have slept with more than the average guy, I like to think that I will have explored sexual compatibilities before getting married. - not that you would ever understand Joe.

The law is correct, lump it Joe its not going to change for people that choose to live by a book.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Like I said before - you might be pro-abortion, but you're glad your mum wasnt, right?

What a silly remark. My mother was married and I was her first (planned) pregnancy. She may well have been pro-choice at the time.

This issue is largely about innocent young girls who find themselves pregnant as a result of various factors in their past including; fear of seeking advice in case of censure from the bigots, lack of Teenage clinics and social/emotional deprivation. They didn't all have the opportunity to be driven to Sunday School or Brownies in a Range Rover. (and plenty of them get pregnant too).

Sady, I agree that the law will not change, certainly not in the current political climate.

That doesn't make it right!

I can't understand this of course. How can it be acceptable that the vast majority of terminations are for frankly frivolous reasons? To me, it beggars belief that this is acceptable. In my view it reflects the disintegration of the family unit, the loss of discipline since the 60's, a complete lack of respect for society, a general disregard of the value of life.

This isn't living life by a book. This is living life responsibly. How is this wrong?

quote:

Originally posted by Phil Cork:
[QUOTE]

However, that has to be one of the most irrational (and, with respect, juvenile) statements i've ever read on this forum...

Phil

Wot? Have you not read many of Joe90's other posts?

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:

Christianity is about standing up for what's RIGHT, not what's convenient. The problem is these 'young people' can't keep their pants up.

You think I'm giving christianity a bad name? Shows how little you know about Christianity.

Good on you joe90.

James 1:27 - Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

Visited any widows or fatherless in your community this week? I rather doubt it. My guess is that you'd be sitting around in your homegroups with your christian buddies, isolated from the real world, condemning these 'young people' for not keeping their pants up rather than just accepting the real situation and extending the hand of love and true charity to the less fortunate.

quote:

I have slept with more than the average guy

Wow, I'm impressed.

I read that several times, and checked right wing's profile to see whether he was a she!

How much more than the average guy was he?

Phil

quote:

Originally posted by Malky:

quote:

I have slept with more than the average guy

Wow, I'm impressed.

Did Right Wing tell you that you were the only one?

I think we're getting sidetracked by scripture here. Take on board the moral thinking taught by the Bible by all means, but don't make the fact that it is written there as the reason itself.

A close friend of mine had a miscarriage this week, and even at 8 weeks, it is a baby. There is no getting away from it, it was a baby . She had to go to hospital today to be cleaned out. She is obviously taking it very badly.
That happening has made it clearer to me. I find it odd that abortion can be considered by anyone thinking rationally, but I suppose that may be half of the problem; the situation may be so immense to some at a crucial time of their lives that they just crumple under the shock and pressure of the situation. Being young now brings its own pressure to live life before settling down to have a family, and the world is very different from just 50 years ago. We should remember what young men and women have to face in their struggle for their first mortgage and their education in this modern world as we sit here looking at someone elses life from the outside. Maybe the Bible has something to say about that too. Well.... I know that it does. We just need to try to understand, and irrespective of our own views (which you can offer), try to provide support.

quote:

both of you have got yourself into mind set that if abortion is allowed then all foetuses are aborted.

An interesting assumption. Incorrect, but there you are.

I'm against abortion for the following reasons:

1) You're terminating the life of a human. That is murder.

2) There are plenty of good alternatives to abortion, like abstinence and being careful and mindful of your responsibilities as a human being.

Abortion need not happen.

I accept the fact that it does happen, but that doesn't make it right.

Murder happens - that's not right. Why's abortion any different?

Because it happens to be a convenient way of getting around a problem of your own creation, though your own stupidty or unpreparedness, or in the very rare case of the so-called 'rape baby' the willingness for revenge.

On that last point, I have a book on Heinrich Himmler. He dispatched himself with cyanide because he knew he would swing for his crimes.

The book contains a photo of him sitting with a little girl on his knee - his daughter Gudrun.

Should she have been hanged too because of the actions of her father?????

Yet those who advocate abortion are killing the child for the actions of the mother and father.

Hideous.

As Rasher has stated - for you to see it any other way is irrational.

It shows the depth of the concept of 'disinterestedness' that was introduced to me at university.

You don't care because it doesn't affect you. By rationalising the baby away as part of the mother's body, as 'her' issue to deal with, and hiding behind the tripe that is 'rights', you walk away.

You are 'disinterested'.

My comments about being thankful that your mum was anti-abortion are not 'juvenile' - they are an attempt (perhaps futile in the case of some Froum members) to get you to think about what your life would be like right now if your parents saw you as an inconvenience, to be sliced in two and sucked into a vaccum cleaner and thrown into a hospital furnace like vomit, snot or some other unwanted 'by-product'.

You wouldn't be here defending the 'right' of others to do that, would you?

joe90

So far you have shown some (ostensible) compassion for unborn children.

You've not said a lot that smells to me like compassion for anybody that might be in the position of being pregnant and who might be at risk through their pregnancy. Any compassion for the social realities of our times.

I know this because I've been waiting for the broad-minded part of your opinions to appear. The part, that is, that's broad-minded enough to encapsulate the entirety of the problem rather than just the part that really pisses you off.

You've minimised teenage pregnancy and rape pregnancy. Asked your wife what she would do if her health was at risk during pregnancy before the foetus was viable. Made some ludicrously unrealistic suggestions to deal with the problem of teenagers having sex without contraception (just tell them not to)...

Oh, that's right, I forgot. You're just in the world; not of the world. If you don't like what we're making of the world that God gave us, then why don't you give all of your money to the poor and follow Jesus instead?

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
Don't have sex outside marriage or until you are ready to accept the consequences of your actions if you do get pregnant.

OK joe90, cards on the table.
Every day I run a walk-in Teenage Sexual Health Clinic in an area designated as "deprived". We serve any under 18s, but in reality our clients are under 16. (Oh my God, aiding and abetting another crime). I agree it would be much better for most of these girls if they weren't having sex, and we try to explain why, but if they wish to continue we offer some protection. Our primary purpose is to reduce the incidence of teenage pregnancy* and sexually transmitted disease. You would appear to share this aim. What will you be doing about it today, apart from sanctimonious bleating on an elitist internet chat room? Faith without works is dead.

*unfortunately a number are already pregnant when they arrive, and we try to help them too.

Well done Rockingdoc.

I'm always struck by one thing with the anti-choice lobby. I accept they have strong feeling about the sanctity of life. However they also seem to believe that people somehow choose to get pregnant and are completely capable of choosing abstinence or contraception. Aside from the fact that the latter is never 100% guaranteed I do not think they understand the realities of a world in which lack of education, social pressures, family chaos and simple human fallibility mean that unwanted pregnancies have, and will always, happen.

I sometimes get the feeling that Joe90 and others feel these women should be punished for their indiscretions, and indirectly so should their unwanted progeny.

Bruce

quote:

Don't have sex outside marriage

Welcome to the 1950's

quote:

Visited any widows or fatherless in your community this week? I rather doubt it. My guess is that you'd be sitting around in your homegroups with your christian buddies, isolated from the real world, condemning these 'young people' for not keeping their pants up rather than just accepting the real situation and extending the hand of love and true charity to the less fortunate.

A very close member of my extended family has had TWO abortions. I still talk to her and I love her just as much as I always did. But I don't and won't condone what she's done. Both times she was simply careless and she regrets what happened and wishes it never did. I accept that the situation has occurred, but that doesn't make it right.

I have other female friends who fell pregnant in their teenage years, had the children and raised them and wouldn't have had it any other way. Yes, it's hard raising kids - probably insanely difficult by yourself - but you get through it and it makes you realise what life is all about.

No, just to put you at ease, I don't sit around in homegroups.

quote:

Any compassion for the social realities of our times.

Is the 'social reality' you wish me to accept immorality, stupidity, fornication, lack of responsibility, disinterestedness, and the PC claptrap of the 'rights' of those who shag like rabbits and then throw away the results like so much garbage? If so, I have no sympathy for these social realities.

The alternatives are there: self-control, responsibility, ability to learn from your own mistakes and those of others.

It only takes a little will power and character. Unfortunately they are qualities we no longer see as the mark of a good person.

quote:

Made some ludicrously unrealistic suggestions to deal with the problem of teenagers having sex without contraception (just tell them not to)...

OK, Deane. I give up. Screw it all. Let anarchy reign. Why bother at all with an attitude like yours?

quote:

OK joe90, cards on the table.
Every day I run a walk-in Teenage Sexual Health Clinic in an area designated as "deprived". We serve any under 18s, but in reality our clients are under 16. (Oh my God, aiding and abetting another crime). I agree it would be much better for most of these girls if they weren't having sex, and we try to explain why, but if they wish to continue we offer some protection. Our primary purpose is to reduce the incidence of teenage pregnancy* and sexually transmitted disease. You would appear to share this aim. What will you be doing about it today, apart from sanctimonious bleating on an elitist internet chat room? Faith without works is dead.

*unfortunately a number are already pregnant when they arrive, and we try to help them too.

Well, I think you do an excellent work. Like I have said below, I've never advocated punishing anyone or refusing to help someone in need. No, I don't think helping pregnant girls is a crime. Abortionists are commiting an offence against humanity but I wouldn't lay a finger on one to harm them.

I do share your aim - but abortions are not in the list of viable choices for wiping away your mistakes after the fact. Murdering someone over the age of born because of your own stupidity is a crime - but the pro-choice side has side-stepped this by classifying a human in a womb as 'not human'.

I'd still like to hear what it is if it isn't a human being in there.

Perhaps it is a tree, or a potato, or a zebra, or maybe an otter?

quote:

I sometimes get the feeling that Joe90 and others feel these women should be punished for their indiscretions, and indirectly so should their unwanted progeny.

Bruce, I wouldn't trust that feeling if I were you. I've been constantly talking about giving life to these 'unwanted' children. Adopt them out. Couples are beside themselves trying to get pregnant, and unwanted pregnancies are being chucked away by the hundreds, and you're telling me I'm advocating punishment?

Where have I EVER said anything about punishing those who had abortions? Or their children?

quote:

Faith without works is dead.

Well, if you really wanna know, not that I have to justify anything to you (nor you to me), that 10% of my income, every week, goes to my church and I know (because I've seen the books) that every bit goes to the Philippines to help people. I'm sure there are others who give more, but I do try and put some of my money where my mouth is.

quote:

Originally posted by joe90:
10% of my income, every week, goes to my church and I know (because I've seen the books) that every bit goes to the Philippines to help people. .

A generous gesture which I admire, but perhaps there wouldn't be so many Phillipinos in deperate straits (population 90 million) if they hadn't had the anti contraception/abortion stance of Roman Catholicism imposed on them.

quote:

Joe90
murdering someone born because of your own stupidity

Joe90, this quote sums up your attitude. All unplanned pregnancies are because people are stupid (unless they were your friend who was just 'careless'). Do you accept at all that unplanned pregnancies happen for more complex reasons than just stupidity, and that they will always happen to ordinary decent, honest people? This is before we even consider the fact that abnormal pregnancies also happen to the same folk?


Bruce

quote:

Do you accept at all that unplanned pregnancies happen for more complex reasons than just stupidity, and that they will always happen to ordinary decent, honest people? This is before we even consider the fact that abnormal pregnancies also happen to the same folk?

Accepted.

IMO abortion isn't practiced by 'decent people', because it's an act of utter indecency.

I knew a woman who had a little girl with Downs - probably one of the hardest problems to deal with of all. But with hard work and sacrifice, they brought her up and she was a happy, functional little girl who enjoyed life.

I am so lucky that I don't have to deal with that, but it shows me that people are tougher than their circumstances if they choose to be.

Joe

Thanks for that. With respect I'm not sure you need to preach to a GP about the effects of living with disability on a family.

We'll differ about the choices that people may make but at least you've reassurred me that you accept that not all unplanned pregnancies are preventable or somebodies 'stupid' fault.

I'll quit this now.

Bruce

I'm not finished yet. How about contraception, is that killing the unborn baby? Should all these girls be denied contraception too and then made to take a pregnancy to term, go through labour and hand the baby over to the Church for adoption (not by any sexual deviants like gays though).

quote:

I have other female friends who fell pregnant in their teenage years,

I agree with a lot of what Joe says, but please don’t say “fell” pregnant. A pregnant woman is not automatically a “fallen” woman anymore. This isn’t the 1800’s.

Anyway….Do you know how an abortion is carried out? From what I understand, and maybe the RokDoc can put me right on this, an injection kills the baby and then it’s limbs are broken in order to pull it out. Sometimes the injection doesn’t entirely work and the baby comes out alive.
The medical profession are getting near to wanting this to end and some staff are almost at the point of refusing to do it anymore. At the very least, we MUST stop any terminations beyond, say, 8 weeks.

There seems to be a general reluctance to accept that this is a baby and not just a piece of surplus body tissue. I wouldn’t be quite as hard-line as Joe, and I don’t accept that people undertake terminations as lightly as he would suggest, but I do think the current system is wrong allowing abortions to a fully formed 24 week unborn baby - That’s five and half months for goodness sake!! I don't think anyone can argue that that is murder.

Rasher

I can't let that go.

The overwhelming majority of TOP's in this country are performed before 12 weeks. The description you give is completely erroneous for that group, and frankly bizarre even for later TOP's.

The products of conception at 12 weeks or earlier are removed using a suction tube, approx the width of your thumb. Gross to some I accept but a long way from your description.

Very early pregnancies can be terminated by a pill which is swallowed, or a pessary placed inside the vagina which effectively triggers an early miscarriage not dissimilar to a period.

Bruce,

The fact is that if a woman has sex, she can fall pregnant. If contraception was involved, the chances are lower but she can still fall pregnant.

If she doesn't have sex, she won't fall pregnant. It doesn't matter what happens, if there's no fornication, there's no pregnancy. There can be lots of fun without that one act. The problem is stopping oneself but that takes restraint and control - not something for which teenagers are renowned.

Either way, yes, it is undeniably stupid, or at best short-sighted, to think that if a girl has sex willingly, she won't fall pregnant.

Naturally, I am only talking here about normal girls with usual mental faculties, there are bound to be some that do not have these faculties, but they are very much in the minority.

It takes some discipline and bravery to abide by the rule of having no fornication, but as humans we are all quite capable of exercising some caution and restraint because we all have the power of thought (once again, caveats regarding the majority here). And even so, if a mistake is made, and pregnancy ensues, then it's time to grow up and accept one's responsibilities for one's actions. If it means hardship, well, that should be taken on the chin. It shouldn't mean murder.