Emigration From England?

quote:

Originally posted by Sloop John B:

Are you still proud to be English?



SJB

Don't be daft. Of course not. What's to be proud of?
Actually to be serious I've always thought to be proud of something like your country implies a bit of insecurity. I know England is pretty good so I don't need to be proud of it. I just know it could be a hell of a lot better.
As a northerner, if I'm in the South op even in another country where it makes no sense at all, and I'm in an uncomfortable situation I slip back into being more northern and proud of being from Yorkshhire. But that's not something positive about Yorkshire - it says more about my insecurity. So really pride in being English - if we feel ok about ourselves we don't need to feel pride in England, it's just part of what we are.

John

This is very deep post. I don't know if I'm proud to be English, I'm definitely not ashamed of it (I mean what could I do about it anyway) - although when I lived in Sweden I was ashamed of the behaviour of some so called England football supporters, but fortunately the Swedes being a sensible lot accepted that the behaviour of a few idiots had nothing to do with me.

Britain (I think it applies beyond England) does seem to be governed by a bunch of untrustworthy clowns. As Oscar Wilde said they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. There does seem to be a lot of moaning and I get caught up in it too. Thatcher started the rot and Blair has continued it - how can you have an integrated transport system when you privatise all the bits of it? And why have we been at war with Argentina and Iraq - perhaps I'm just not clever enough to understand.

Interestingly, a few years back I was in an airport waiting to fly to Dublin and the plane was delayed by a few hours (not unusal with Bristol airport). The British contingent complained to the airline staff quite bitterly and general got very depressed. The Irish guys sitting around me, played some music, told a few jokes and had some more drinks. True, it is a generalisation, but it showed me there were two ways to react.

It does surprise me when other countries in the British Isles don't like to see England win something like a football match. If Ireland, Scotland or Wales are playing then I find I like to see them win, except against England, of course, but for my part it is a friendly rivalry and whatever the result we should all have drink together afterwards. Perhaps my late grandmother being from Cork, my late grandfather being from Glasgow and Mrs Rotf growing up in Cardiff explains this.

And yes I do think England will win the world cup, but I also think Ipswich Town will be promoted next season and go on to win the Champions League. But I still can't get my head around, Owen Hargreaves anchor man.

I do find Britain an unequal society and it seems some get rewarded for very little, whereas others are underpaid. We seem to pay lots of tax, but quite what benefit we see is a mystery to me. The cost of living in dreams is rising like the crime rate.

We are also bombarded with numerous TV programmes telling us how much better it is to live in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Italy and, of course, Spain - seems everybody is being encouraged to have their place in the sun. So it doesn't surprise me that many folks believe the other man's grass is greener.

Well those are my rather disorganised thoughts on the subject.

All the best, Rotf

To start with, I am Dutch but lived in the UK now for 10 years. My wife is British and my children were born here.

This not being happy with your country thing is not uniquely English/British. Take ROTF’s post and substitute British/English with, for example, Holland and it could equally be written by a Dutchman. In January I was in Holland for a quick visit of family and friends and I was amazed how much Holland had ‘grumpified’. I have the feeling that the same is happening in other countries in Western Europe.

Me? Well, I am very happy here in the UK, I can’t see myself moving back to Holland. If you think the UK is a nanny state....

Am I proud to be Dutch? No, I’m proud to be myself.

Peter,

My first thoughts on this are that it depends where I am. If I'm in the UK, then I'm not particularly proud to be English, but if I'm abroad, sometimes I am. I think that maybe this comes from the romantic notion of being English being far removed from the reality.
I remember coming back from Poland and the guy at passport control at Heathrow was black, and suddenly realising I hadn't seen anything other than a pasty white face for two weeks. Then it hit me that I was really proud to belong to a country that had such a wonderful mix of citizens and I felt happy to be back.
Mostly though you only have to look at reality TV to see how depressingly awful the English really are, and I'm ashamed to be English under those circumstances. I'd never go to areas of Spain that have been taken over by Brits with English Pubs- I'm ashamed of that too. I think this is where my dismissal of football comes from - I'd probably enjoy watching it if I could get over my prejudice with some of the awful lowlife that play and run it. That sounds awful, but I’m afraid it’s true, even though I know it is an inaccurate picture. I actually think David Beckham is a lovely bloke and a fantastic role-model for any kid, so it just illustrates how disillusioned (and wrong) I am.

quote:

Originally posted by ROTF:
It does surprise me when other countries in the British Isles don't like to see England win something like a football match. If Ireland, Scotland or Wales are playing then I find I like to see them win, except against England, of course, but for my part it is a friendly rivalry and whatever the result we should all have drink together afterwards. Perhaps my late grandmother being from Cork, my late grandfather being from Glasgow and Mrs Rotf growing up in Cardiff explains this.

And yes I do think England will win the world cup, but I also think Ipswich Town will be promoted next season and go on to win the Champions League. But I still can't get my head around, Owen Hargreaves anchor man.

My thoughts are similar to yours. Having a Scottish father and a half-Irish mother, and being a Northerner by birth I don't really think of myself as English in the way that Mrs H (a Southerner with English ancestors stretching back as far as the eye can see) does.

As someone else has pointed out, it's silly to be 'proud' of being English/British whatever, because it's not an achievement in itself being only an accident of birth anyway. I'm proud of what my parents did in bringing up a family of four children on next to nothing, and I'm proud of the way Britain as a nation stood up to Nazi Germany, but to be 'proud' of an island or a flag seems absurd.

Dear Friends,

I think we can be mainly proud of British history over the last 100 years, but it is hard to look further back than that and realy be proud of it. It was no better or worse than the common-place, except for the defeat of Napoleon, which was at least in part a team effort! Blucher anyone?

But the way Britain is going is enough to cause anyone who can to leave post haste I am sure. The place is finished for the little man. Ultimately when the there is more dissatisfaction then it will be finished for everyone else as well...

The place has lost all its values, which are far more important than any financial considerations in my view. Cynical use and abuse are the rule now.

What I meant was that people have lost their values, manners, respect, and integrity. This applies within the familly, the work-plcees, the street, and on the road. I can think of an area wof life where standards have risen. But one sees foreigners here, whose standards seem distinctly old fashioned and rather preferable to our current average.

I seriously I am thinking of going to live in Eastern Europe, where the financial thing is tough, but the people still display a genuineness not encountered in the main in the British, nowadays.

Fredrik

PS: Have I turned into grumpy old man.

I'm tempted to say being overly proud of your country and its achievements (an accident of birth as was pointed out) is another example of one upmanship (insecurity), a bit like thinking you're a better person if you follow a certain football team drive a certain car.....

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
What I meant was that peole have lost their values, manners, respect, integrity. This applies within the familly, the work-plcees, the street, on the road. I can think of an area wof life where standards have risen. but one sees foreigners where these here, whose standards seem distinctly old fashioned and rather preferable to our cuurent average.

Well, you have to call it as you see it, I suppose, but it's only fair to point out that much the same complaints have been made throughout British history, and indeed were being made in Ancient Greece and Rome!

I have never been interested in relativity in this sense, but have you tried leaving your car unattended and with ignition key it it on a high street these days. This was possible and normal thirty years ago. The moral breakdown is clear to me.

Fredrik

I'm more proud of the fact that my daughter, due to my wife's part Indian bloodline, has a darker skintone than I have (sadly my son and other daughter are boring pastey white). In my family, my children are the only ones carrying on our branch, and they are now mixed blood. I'm really proud of that because that is how I see an ideal world turning out.

Well, genetically I'm quarter Polish, but I tend to think of myself of English. I am especially inclined to describe myself as English because I know it irritates the shit out of BBC/New Labour and other low-life pinko types who want to drag our nation down to the lowest common denominator, so as to make minority, retrograde cultures feel more at home.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
I have never been interested in relativity in this sense, but have you tried leaving your car unattended and with ignition key it it on a high street these days. This was possible and normal thirty years ago. The moral breakdown is clear to me.

Where I was living 30 years ago they'd have had the car away in seconds, and if you did lock it, they'd have had the wheels off!

Frederik
What revisionist tosh!
Believe me unattended cars were being nicked left right and centre in Manchester in 1976!

Nice post Rasher

I've lived in a few other countries. Admittedly never for more than a year or 18 months at a time so I may not have got a full feel of the country. But I can honestly say none of them were better than the UK. Some had definite advantages in certain areas, but overall I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. I wouldn't miss the UK, apart from friends and family, but I don't think I would be replacing it with anything better or frankly quite as good.

Chaps

We should be proud of this country. Just look what this tiny little island has achieved.

We created the worlds greatest empire and whilst we did well out of it, it sped up the process of civilisation throughout the world.

The Victorians invented more things than anyone else ever did and today the world enjoys that legacy.

We were the nation that took on Hitler and even today we are the 4th largest economy.

I could go on for hours, our contibution to the world of music, Live Aid, architectural splendors such as the London Wheel, the Eden Project and so on and so on.

We are a strange nation, one half works bloody hard to better the world and the other half are a bunch of useless whinging pinko twerps. You only have to look here to determine who belongs to which group.

Despite the fact that we are supporting these useless buggers, our economy is still good and most of us are living better than before.

Cecil Rhodes once said ...if you are born an Englishman you have won the lottery of life. That is as true today as it was when he said it.

I am proud to be English and apologise to no one for that. In my 57 years, I have lived well, I have visited many countries and I have many good friends. I also have a bloody good English hifi system and just for once, count your blessings and beat the drum.

If you were not English, goodness knows where you would be or how you would be living.

Regards

Mick

Being English and recently emigrated to Canada, there are similarities and differences. Where I am in Alberta people grumble about the Government, the traffic, weather, cost of fuel....the usual sort of things. So no change there!! The differences are the space, slower pace of day to day life (not true in all of Canada), American goods everywhere. But different isn't necessarily better. I know I'm enjoying it and I will visit England every six months or so to see friends and relatives. I am proud of my heritage, but not so proud of how England has become over-crowded, badly governed and that everything costs so much in relation to the average pay cheque.

Here in Edmonton we even have a Hi Fi shop staffed by muscicians who sell Naim equipment, we even have a Linn dealer...so if ever I want another LP12.....
But the biggest disappointment is that I cannot get hold of a pair of SBLs, so on my next visit to England in June I shall be hunting for a set!!

Cheers

Tim

quote:

Originally posted by Mick Parry:
architectural splendors such as the London Wheel

Have you been drinking again?

EW

No, he's from Swindon. He just doesn't know much about architecture.

EW

The London wheel is fantastic.

Bob

Try coming up with something original instead of all the negative stuff you keep dribbling out.

Regards

Mick

It's the London Eye, Mick - it might look like a bloody great wheel, but that ain't what it's called!

I think you make a lot of good points Mick and you're right about those things, but I can't help thinking that as I run my own business, it's so bloody hard and that the more I make, the more I have to give away on taxes to the point where I'm not sure why I bother! I could just give it all up and be looked after by the state and probably be better off by cheating (they do, don't they?) without the worry. I know you're right, but I sometimes feel beaten down by it all. There seems to be no justice - talking of which...no, let's not start on law & order. It's just too tough here. If I went to the states I'd be rich enough not to have to work again

quote:

but I can't help thinking that as I run my own business, it's so bloody hard and that the more I make, the more I have to give away on taxes to the point where I'm not sure why I bother!

Try looking at it another way, the more you make the more you get to keep. Over £35k they have 41% but you get 59%. Hey I would be happy with 59%!

I do sympathise with you though I have often called small business's tax collection points and it is getting tougher but try and be possitive about it all.

I often think of selling up and moving to Spain but to do what? lie around in the sun all day? Its good for a week or two each year but constantly it would drive you mad.

Its hard work here but overall it is very enjoyable and it is what you make of it,

Regards

PB

No offence to the Americans that post here but if I found myself living in the states I'd probably end up like Earwicker before too long.

quote:

Originally posted by JonR:
Mick - it might look like a bloody great wheel, but that ain't what it's called!

It ain't called an "architectural splendor" either!

EW