Emigration From England?
Posted by: Sloop John B on 17 May 2006
Hi all,
I was surprised and a little shocked at the replies to the "what do you think of her majesty's government" thread.
Several of you expressed a wish to emigrate.
Up to a couple of years ago emigration was a fact of life in Ireland. The population in 1950 was about half of that in 1850. It's only in the last few years that this decline has been halted and now we have nett immigration from other (generally poorer) countries.
Ireland being part of England's colonial history, probably has a love hate relationship with England. (If your are in an Irish pub during the world cup not many will be shouting good on ya Beckam - unless he's sent off - but that's another story) Most of us have looked enviously to England at times, at it's cosmopolitan nature, it's great engineering feats, it's strong democracy. Now these views of mine would have been formed in the Thatcher years (where I would have been on Paul Weller's and Billy Bragg's side). The explosion then of music with the clash, the police, madness, the specials, Costello and countless others was amazing. That's the England I like to think is still there, with the possibility of this happening again.
Yeats once wrote of Ireland
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
it's with O'Leary in the Grave
only to revise his opinion a mere 3 years later.
Do a fair majority of you truly believe England (I'm deliberately not using Britain - Scotland or Wales could win the world cup and we'd all be thrilled - the post colonial syndrome again) is going (gone) down the tubes with no hope of redemption?
Do none of you feel you can do anything about it?
Are you still proud to be English?
SJB
I was surprised and a little shocked at the replies to the "what do you think of her majesty's government" thread.
Several of you expressed a wish to emigrate.
Up to a couple of years ago emigration was a fact of life in Ireland. The population in 1950 was about half of that in 1850. It's only in the last few years that this decline has been halted and now we have nett immigration from other (generally poorer) countries.
Ireland being part of England's colonial history, probably has a love hate relationship with England. (If your are in an Irish pub during the world cup not many will be shouting good on ya Beckam - unless he's sent off - but that's another story) Most of us have looked enviously to England at times, at it's cosmopolitan nature, it's great engineering feats, it's strong democracy. Now these views of mine would have been formed in the Thatcher years (where I would have been on Paul Weller's and Billy Bragg's side). The explosion then of music with the clash, the police, madness, the specials, Costello and countless others was amazing. That's the England I like to think is still there, with the possibility of this happening again.
Yeats once wrote of Ireland
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone
it's with O'Leary in the Grave
only to revise his opinion a mere 3 years later.
Do a fair majority of you truly believe England (I'm deliberately not using Britain - Scotland or Wales could win the world cup and we'd all be thrilled - the post colonial syndrome again) is going (gone) down the tubes with no hope of redemption?
Do none of you feel you can do anything about it?
Are you still proud to be English?
SJB
Posted on: 20 May 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by John Gilleran:
This gal seems to have a good idea of what's happened to Britain.
No she does not. She is an evil fascist witch. Right wing Jewish propaganda on a right wing American neo-con hysteria website. People like this are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.
Posted on: 20 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Erik,
I just tried to answer that, and could not post it. It rambled too much. Thanks for putting it so succintly. Fredrik
I just tried to answer that, and could not post it. It rambled too much. Thanks for putting it so succintly. Fredrik
Posted on: 20 May 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
Dear Erik,
I just tried to answer that, and could not post it. It rambled too much. Thanks for putting it so succintly. Fredrik
Fredrik,
Maybe Mr.Gilleran would like to buy one of those 'nuke Iran' t shirts available from that website or maybe he has one already. America is full of these morons. They disgust me.
Erik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by JonR
Oh, Melanie Phillips - well that says it all really 
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by erik scothron:
No she does not. She is an evil fascist witch. Right wing Jewish propaganda on a right wing American neo-con hysteria website. People like this are not part of the solution they are part of the problem.
Sadly she is spot on. BBC/New Labour's desire to integrate retrograde cultures into our own has led to the perverse situation in which luvvies rub shoulders with people who think women should be oppressed and gays killed; weird.
A bunch of pinko wankers have actively dragged society down to a level such that some rather sinister people can now feel at home in it; this has not proved a good idea.
EW
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by erik scothron
quote:Originally posted by Earwicker:
Sadly she is spot on. BBC/New Labour's desire to integrate retrograde cultures into our own has led to the perverse situation in which luvvies rub shoulders with people who think women should be oppressed and gays killed; weird.
A bunch of pinko wankers have actively dragged society down to a level such that some rather sinister people can now feel at home in it; this has not proved a good idea.
EW
Pure nonesense. For starters the BBC is full of Gays. The only retrograde culture in the UK is the chav culture which is endemic, persistant and virulent. If by retrograde culture you mean Islamic I am afraid you are clearly wrong. Of course you can quote examples if sinister muslims, there are plenty, but as a percentage they are a tiny minority. If this tiny monority feels so much at home here one wonders what they have to complain about.
There are hundreds of websites like the one in the link above, they push the same recycled material and have the same agenda. Please do have a very close look at them. They can seem quite reasonable at first glance but the further you dig into them the more clear the agenda becomes just like the BNP over here. In America today students are encouraged to report their teachers, lecturers and professors for any views that are contrary to the far right neocon agenda and where have we seen that before? Nazi Germany , Stalinist Russia, the China of Chairman Mao, the list goes on. You just feed into the 'us and them' mentality ew.
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by erik scothron:
Pure nonesense. For starters the BBC is full of Gays.
Well, quite... what are you telling me? I'm sure these lovely gay luvvies would enjoy a chat about gay rights with the mullahs.
quote:The only retrograde culture in the UK is the chav culture
No, that's retrograde too.
quote:If by retrograde culture you mean Islamic I am afraid you are clearly wrong.
"Clearly"?????? Oh right. So the vast majority of terrorist attacks and the bulk of the remaining threat is down to the Buddhists? Perhaps we have different views on what "clearly" means.
quote:but as a percentage they are a tiny minority
Oh really? How do you know that? Have you asked them all?
quote:If this tiny monority feels so much at home here one wonders what they have to complain about.
Once does indeed wonder.
EW
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Roy T
It would seem that some folks are not too happy with the way things are or are going in the UK so as the thread title suggests that emigration may the answer but where to go?
Will it be one of the old guard such as USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the sunny parts of Europe, one of the Nordic countries, Dubai or some place further east?
Stop moaning about the state of things and name a country.
Will it be one of the old guard such as USA, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, the sunny parts of Europe, one of the Nordic countries, Dubai or some place further east?
Stop moaning about the state of things and name a country.
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Norway.
I shall be investigating this on my visit there to see my Aunt in August or September. No,I am not joking. I have never been more serious.
Fredrik
I shall be investigating this on my visit there to see my Aunt in August or September. No,I am not joking. I have never been more serious.
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Adam Meredith
quote:Originally posted by Roy T:
It would seem that some folks are not too happy with the way things are or are going in the UK so as the thread title suggests that emigration may the answer but where to go?
The main question for some will be "Who would take me?".
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Adam,
"Precisely!" Fredrik [Smiley].
Is there a Naim outlet in Oslo?
"Precisely!" Fredrik [Smiley].
Is there a Naim outlet in Oslo?
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
The main question for some will be "Who would take me?".
Wasn't it Grauch Marx who said, I wouldn't want to belong to any club that'd have me as a member?
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by Steve2701:
I was one of the early ones in the post who said he was looking to go, and I still am. I also said (I think) that the problem was where to go..
I adore parts of this country. I belong to groups who actively fight to keep the countryside alive and as it should be kept.. clean rivers, rubbish free etc. I work hard for it, and it is so demoralising to see projects like a 3/4 million restoration of 1/2 mile of waterway through an urban area UTTERLY DESTROYED by local inhabitants. Why? It was done to make their area a better place and somewhere to be proud of. In Fredricks thread on pessimism, I see great areas that are in tune with this thread. A complete lack of RESPECT has spread like cancer through the country. I see it daily, and am utterly fed up with it. So, is there actually any place on this planet that we actually haven't f****d up and still has humans who know the meaning of respect? I somehow doubt it, but if I find it, dont expect me to tell anyone, or hear from me in a hurry.
If I escape, that will be the last thing you hear from me. The clues are there, but it is bloody difficult to get in. I intend to try for it this summer.
As for those who maintain that things life is healthier, people are richer, and things are fairer, I would only say, that this focus has changed. Some will find they are better off, and others worse. It is a no net gain situation. Life is still wildly unfair, and though no one starves, there are still many who struggle in grinding poverty, and that with these two points there are quite a few who are no healthier than they might well have been in the past, in UK.
It seems to me the biggest problem is that we are increasingly working to keep share holders happy, and under incompetent managers, who know how to appear in command, but will do anything fair or unfair to ensure their own survival. I have become deeply cynical about the two way traffic of good will in the work place. It is expected of the men at the coal face, and simply does not exist the other way around nowadays. As I say, I am off, one way or the other. At one time we worked for the people who actually owned businesses, and at least there was the possibility of human contact with them. A real connection, but huge organisations, hierachies and deliberately poor communications destroy any possibilty that those owning the capital will ever feel any responsibility for those who actually generate the wealth that sustains them...
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Roy T
A short note from the letters section of the FT describing the view of someone who has moved to the USA not too many years ago, his words echo some of the thoughts raised on this thead.
quote:The American Dream and the importance of thinking poor
By Vassil Nikolov
Published: May 15 2006 03:00 | Last updated: May 15 2006 03:00
From Mr Vassil Nikolov.
Sir, I have been living in the US for eight years now and still have an accent. I know that is not saying much since most immigrants - even the ones who have spent their entire adult lives here - still speak "funny". Yet, I know I can get rid of my accent if I want to. But I do not want to. Because the accent is a unique part of me. Just like my immigration status gives me a unique perspective on the world. Which makes me believe I have something to say in this letter.
The stereotypical view of an immigrant is an individual with limited means and/or career opportunities who is looking to find those in a country other than the country of origin. While there are many variations on this theme, this is basically true. Like many immigrants who are flocking to the US, I grew up in a country that was neither too poor nor rich. I was not starving nor was utterly unhappy. But, like all my peers, I knew there was something out there called "The West" symbolised by something generally known as "America" that was appealing and enticing mainly because it was the forbidden fruit. So, when opportunity availed itself, the natural inclination was to try to leave. Many chose the illegal route (just get there somehow and stay) while others, like me, took a higher road. We studied hard, applied to schools here, got accepted, graduated (many with honours) and got hired by local companies on the infamous (in the immigration circles, anyway) H1-B work visa. A few years rolled by and many of us are in high and well-paid positions, with green card applications pending or completed, wind in our sails and cheerfully cruising towards the American Dream.
Not me. The more I am achieving, the more I feel something is not right. My wife and I (a kindred spirit, thank God!) have been holding back on the big purchases expected to be made by us at this point of our lives (early 30s) reflecting the material wellbeing we are revelling in. Maybe it was the uncertainty of our visa situation (my green card is still pending) or maybe it was something more, but we were taken aback by the fact that we need to invest $400,000 in a house or even $20,000 in a new car. I know these purchases are considered a right of passage in this country but doesn't anybody think of the opportunity cost? I mean - hello! -- you start a new job and the first thing you do is buy a new car and, a month later, a new house? What if the job does not go right? What if your boss hates you or you hate him/her? What if there are other things that drive you crazy at the job (you fill in the blanks)? Given your $400,000 mortgage and $20,000 car financing, will you have the guts to tell your boss to go where the sun does not shine and just leave? Or will you just put up with it, remain in a state of miserable hibernation at work and look for joy and satisfaction outside of work, usually piling up on your material possessions and partying hard to forget?
Unfortunately, from what I see, 90 per cent of the people choose option two. Because it is hard to make a free decision when you are loaded with so much burden. Yes, you can divest of this burden, sell the house, get a smaller car or (God forbid!) no car at all. But then you will be considered a loser. The peer pressure will destroy you. You think high-school was peer pressure? Try the young white-collar business professionals in a booming market (of your choice)! Divesting is out of question. Going back is not an option. Your goals becomes finding a company to sustain your lifestyle. You do not think of the opportunity cost. The grudges you have towards your job are normal and everybody has them. You strive towards a bigger house, better car and a corner office. When you retire, then you will "live" (meaning: do what you like and not what you have to).
Not me. I am not getting into this "affluent person" mentality. I would rather think poor but preserve my freedom of choice. No, I am not selling everything and becoming a shepherd back home. That would be too dramatic and stereotypical. But I am done with the office job. I am using the money I saved living below my means to do something I like NOW. Whether that would be travelling around the country or starting my own business is irrelevant. The important thing is I have the choice to do it and the means to achieve it. And that is what I consider my real American Dream.
Vassil Nikolov,
Washington, DC 20007, US
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear roy,
If you look at my post immediately about yours, you will see why I consider the USA absolutely the last place on Earth I would go to. Indeed it would be worse than death for me!
If I knew enough I would consider Eastern Europe, but I don't.
Fredrik
If you look at my post immediately about yours, you will see why I consider the USA absolutely the last place on Earth I would go to. Indeed it would be worse than death for me!
If I knew enough I would consider Eastern Europe, but I don't.
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
I consider the USA absolutely the last place on Earth I would go to
Easy words, but would you really rather go to Beruit, or Darfur, Iran, Iraq or some other godforsaken hot place where they stone you to death for farting in the bath than the land of the free? Let's be clear, I am not a fan of American "culture", such as it is; but forced to choose there are certainy a million worse places to be. Depending on one's options, the Great Satan has much to recommend it, hence many of its detractors pull their pants down and bend over faster than you can say jihad if they get a whiff of a chance of a passport.
EW
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Roy T
Fredrik,
my post was an attempt to show that the grass is not always greener and not a comment upon your thoughts and views about living in the USA. I like the idea of living in Finland or New Zealand but I expect that neither would have me but dreams cost nothing and at the same time they lighten the heart.
my post was an attempt to show that the grass is not always greener and not a comment upon your thoughts and views about living in the USA. I like the idea of living in Finland or New Zealand but I expect that neither would have me but dreams cost nothing and at the same time they lighten the heart.
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Roy,
I think the only places we might feel that we might not get trapped by the grass is greener thing, is where we know the places have a different concept of peer pressure and consumerism. The USA actually is worse than UK in this trespect, but we are following fast! I am not guessing at this, as I have connections...
You say Finland, and I agree, but I know definately about Norway. Hence my very real thoughts. The place is not perfect, but they know what respect is and if one could get a toe-hold in the place it would be marvelous to be ridded of the wretched business of our Anglo Saxon 'me me' culture. I guess NZ might be like that, but don't know.
I can say without a shadow of doubt that the Polish I know who have come here are only here for one reason, and that is to return home richer (by their very unhappy standards), by taking excruciating steps here such as four living in a three bedroom house (loosing the living room), and a few months has removed any shadow of the thought that they might want to stay here! What a wonderful condemnation of what we have to offer, given poor Poland's economic crisis!
Fredrik
I think the only places we might feel that we might not get trapped by the grass is greener thing, is where we know the places have a different concept of peer pressure and consumerism. The USA actually is worse than UK in this trespect, but we are following fast! I am not guessing at this, as I have connections...
You say Finland, and I agree, but I know definately about Norway. Hence my very real thoughts. The place is not perfect, but they know what respect is and if one could get a toe-hold in the place it would be marvelous to be ridded of the wretched business of our Anglo Saxon 'me me' culture. I guess NZ might be like that, but don't know.
I can say without a shadow of doubt that the Polish I know who have come here are only here for one reason, and that is to return home richer (by their very unhappy standards), by taking excruciating steps here such as four living in a three bedroom house (loosing the living room), and a few months has removed any shadow of the thought that they might want to stay here! What a wonderful condemnation of what we have to offer, given poor Poland's economic crisis!
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
I honestly would not put the US above your examples of awful places to live, for me. So not just easy words, but heartfelt ones.
Fredrik
I honestly would not put the US above your examples of awful places to live, for me. So not just easy words, but heartfelt ones.
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by Fredrik_Fiske:
I honestly would not put the US above your examples of awful places to live, for me. So not just easy words, but heartfelt ones.
Oh well, each to his own. Heat, disease, oppression, despotism and general unpleasantness make the USA seem highly appealing to me...
EW
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Tam
Personally I would happily live in the states (not least because I have a number of family and friends there). It's terribly fashionable these days to knock America but it is in many ways a wonderful country (and their culture of philanthropy for the arts frankly, puts us in the UK rather to shame).
It is also fashionable to knock American culture but one of the finest operas I have seen in a long while came from the pen of John Adams, my favourite writer hails from there as do/did so many wonderful jazz musicians, not to mention the finest orchestra I have ever heard in concert (the Cleveland).
regards, Tam
It is also fashionable to knock American culture but one of the finest operas I have seen in a long while came from the pen of John Adams, my favourite writer hails from there as do/did so many wonderful jazz musicians, not to mention the finest orchestra I have ever heard in concert (the Cleveland).
regards, Tam
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Earwicker
quote:Originally posted by Tam:
It's terribly fashionable these days to knock America but it is in many ways a wonderful country
I entirely agree.
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear EW,
I am saying the US is on a level with the worst places, but for very different reasons to some of the worst. I am not sure that the UK is now so unappealing that compared to the US it is rapidly coming to be the level of the second worst after the level of the US and other frightful places you quote. Actually, now you mention it, despotism, heat, and disease are pretty fine reasons for avoiding the US as well...
There are many other places I would not want to go for many reasons, not all of them very PC, and therefore not a subject to go into here.
Fredrik
I am saying the US is on a level with the worst places, but for very different reasons to some of the worst. I am not sure that the UK is now so unappealing that compared to the US it is rapidly coming to be the level of the second worst after the level of the US and other frightful places you quote. Actually, now you mention it, despotism, heat, and disease are pretty fine reasons for avoiding the US as well...
There are many other places I would not want to go for many reasons, not all of them very PC, and therefore not a subject to go into here.
Fredrik
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by Mick P
Chaps
The Americans have a lot of get up and go. If there is something wrong, they fix it or at least do their best to fix it.
I admire them.
Regards
Mick
The Americans have a lot of get up and go. If there is something wrong, they fix it or at least do their best to fix it.
I admire them.
Regards
Mick
Posted on: 21 May 2006 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mick,
I quite agree that there is energy in abundance in the US, but it is not their monopoly. There are other countries who are far more successful in this respect. Like Britain, the US is is in termianl decine. Cultures wax and wane, like the Greek hegemony or the Roman Empire...
Fredrik
I quite agree that there is energy in abundance in the US, but it is not their monopoly. There are other countries who are far more successful in this respect. Like Britain, the US is is in termianl decine. Cultures wax and wane, like the Greek hegemony or the Roman Empire...
Fredrik