What do Naimies think of Linn sound?

LP12, Kan 1 &2, Isobariks aside, the Linn sound is characterised by many as clean, detailed, but rather unengaging.

"Let your life proceed by it's own design. Let the words be yours, I have done with mine"

I originally auditioned comparable Linn and Naim systems at my dealer. Generally I thought the Linn sound was just a little too laid back for my taste, the Naim was markedly more involving. Some people claim the Linn is better with classical material, but Naim does it best for me.

David

I remember buying my original Naim system. I had it demmed against a similarly priced Linn system. At the end of the dem all I wanted to do was listen to the Naim.

To me Linn is about HI-FI and Naim is about music.

Nana

Well, a very interesting thread and certainly one that "touched" me very recently. Previous threads of mine will have explained that I was in the market for a completely new system for my (being built, still) new house.

Budget of around £5k with the brief that it had to have floor-standing speakers (SWMBO). I started to listen.......and decided to join the Naim Forum as soon as I learned there was one.

I have had many great responses and these were helpful to give me the insight on the "philosophy" of Naim and also the pitfalls and footpaths that one can expect.

At my budget, I found the Linn system (IKEMI, WAKONDA, 2250, NINKA) more musically involving than the Naim system (CD5, 112, 120, ALLAE) and it now sits in my living room at home making beautiful music and I am spending many hours rediscovering my CD collection.

What I do realise is that Naim and Linn both manufacture some of the best equipment available.

If I do win the Lottery and have serious money to spend, I will re-evaluate both brands at the budget point and buy the system that I enjoy most. I would not blindly buy more expensive Linn, unlike many.

I now spend most of my time on the Music Room side of the forum, nuff said !!!!

Naim Audio - respect !!!

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Originally posted by PR:
I never listened to Linn since my Harrods experience. It was like £40000 worth of Amstrad.

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Would that have been the Keltik Aktiv System in the little dem room that was set up like a sitting room?

I listened to that system in 1994 and I thought that it sounded horrendous! We listened to "Talking Timbuktu" by Ali Farka Toure and Ry Cooder. All I shall say is, having seen Mr Farka Toure play live just a few weeks earlier, I know that the gentle stroking of a gourd does not produce the kind of explosive transient that I heard from the Linn system.

Some months later, I heard an identical system in the dem room of a specialist Linn dealer. That time, the system sounded so lifeless that it almost sent me to sleep.

On a recent visit to London I heard at Harrods the current top-flight Linn system of CD12, Klimax amps and active Kmori (I think) speakers. This time the system was out in the main display area. It was like £90000 worth of Amstrad.

And to show you where I'm coming from: I run an LP12/Ekos/Akiva through a Prefix into an otherwise all-Naim system.

I'm assuming that you're talking about complete Linn systems vs complete Naim systems.

Taking the above as a starting point, well I'd actually prefer not to have either system.
The complete Linn systems I've heard simply left me a little cold. Yes they have oodles of detail, space blah blah blah, but just didn'd give me any kick of interest.

Ref Naim gear, well I really don't like any Naim speaker I've ever heard. The SBL comes closest, and I don't rate it that highly. I personally prefer a combination of Linn speaker with Naim amplification, but hey, that's just me.

May I add that, in Scotland, it is IMPOSSIBLE to hear a combination Linn / Naim system.

And who would buy what you cannot hear ?

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Originally posted by long-time-dead:
May I add that, in Scotland, it is IMPOSSIBLE to hear a combination Linn / Naim system.

And who would buy what you cannot hear ?

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What about the famous Robert Richie of Montrose. They still deal in Linn and Naim. And they have a reputation on this Forum that is second to none.

Yours in Music

Syd

Syd,

Robert Ritchie is no longer a Linn dealer, which is a shame as I would like to hear an Akiva, so would now have to go to the Linn shop in Glasgow. This would of course be in an all Linn system which is not what I run.

I don't want to buy blind so what to do?

Sean.

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Originally posted by David Stewart:
I originally auditioned comparable Linn and Naim systems at my dealer. Generally I thought the Linn sound was just a little too laid back for my taste, the Naim was markedly more involving. Some people claim the Linn is better with classical material, but Naim does it best for me.

David

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Interesting that many feel Linn is laid back. From image projection stand point, it's about right. Naim seems to reach out more forward than Linn.

In the States, both Linn and Naim are known for their ability to pace better.
Generally, does Naim pigeon holed into pop/rock only gear?

I didn't particularly think Linn is for classical...i think they can equally do all sorts of music well albeit Naim seems to be little more compelling in the right system.

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Originally posted by Mr_Sukebe:
I'm assuming that you're talking about complete Linn systems vs complete Naim systems.

Taking the above as a starting point, well I'd actually prefer not to have either system.
The complete Linn systems I've heard simply left me a little cold. Yes they have oodles of detail, space blah blah blah, but just didn'd give me any kick of interest.

Ref Naim gear, well I really don't like any Naim speaker I've ever heard. The SBL comes closest, and I don't rate it that highly. I personally prefer a combination of Linn speaker with Naim amplification, but hey, that's just me.

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Actually I was curious about their sources. ( Linn, I think make better source than the rest of their offering )

But I agree with both systems either Linn or Naim, there's something *off* about 'em and a little voice back of my head keeps telling me 'this is bloody expensive for what it is.'

I am curious how it would be to drop a Linn CDP in all Naim system.

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At my budget, I found the Linn system (IKEMI, WAKONDA, 2250, NINKA) more musically involving than the Naim system (CD5, 112, 120, ALLAE) and it now sits in my living room at home making beautiful music and I am spending many hours rediscovering my CD collection.

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Why did you find Naim system not to your liking?

Altho, I don't have a complete Linn or Naim system, I was listening to both Ikemi and CDX2 in my SET valve rig last nite.

Interesting thing is that they are both musical and pace well yet in different ways.

kuma

Thanks for the interest.

I felt the Naim system, while it did have the upgrade potential of imporving the power supplies, sounded "bitty". It sounded good, don't get me wrong, but not in a coherent sense. The individual aspects of the sounds were just that - isolated and it led to the sound being a little dis-jointed.

Maybe it was that the CD5/112/150 were not good enough for the ALLAE's until they had the PSU upgrades - maybe not. During the dem, we added a Hi-Cap which made a big difference but I was not going to spend my money on a system to always "need" to add boxes.

To simplify my feelings, the Linn system was more musical than the Naim system. I dem'd them both within the same day and had a further dem of the Linn system once I had made my choice - just to be certain !

And who knows what I would have bought if Robert Ritchie WAS still selling both !!!

To echo Jez, LP12 is great (got one!), Kans are great (got some!), Isobariks are scary (maybe if I get a bigger room...).
I hear one of the early Linn amps, but it didn't rock my boat.

Paul Rowlands

I was given a demo of some top flight Linn kit (CD12, those big £25k floor standers whose name eludes me, the new multi-format disc spinner, oh, and a top spec LP12 - Lingo2/Ekos/Akiva) when I went to pick up my humble LP12 after its service.

I think Jez summed up the Linn sound and I was more than happy to return to my Naim kit at home.

I have since heard an LP12/Lingo2/Ekos/Akiva playing a variety of music through an 82/super/2*135s/Katans the results were superb.

I think the 'perfect' sistem would be a combination of the best of Naim and Linn components, but then wasn't that always the case?

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Maybe it was that the CD5/112/150 were not good enough for the ALLAE's until they had the PSU upgrades - maybe not.

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I suspect the reverse may be the case - I have to say I've rarely heard a Naim speaker I liked, most of the good sounding Naim systems I've heard have been feeding somebody else's speakers, but that may just be a personal taste thing.

David

I might not have much in the way of Naim, but I too have heard a few of their speakers...

I don't rate them either. I heard the SL2s in a shop in Bristol last September and they had no bass at all. OK, so my system is bass-shy due to the little Elas being in a large overdamped concrete box with a NAIT3, but at least they *have* some bass. The SL2s sounded harsh and bright and didn't seem to have any more bass than my Rega Kytes. Not impressed.

I've briefly heard the Allaes and SBLs and they're not so bad, but still too harsh sounding.

I've never heard Kans, but the briks I heard once were mad - pretty impressive but still musical.

__________________________
Make your choice, adventurous Stranger;
Strike the bell and bide the danger
Or wonder, till it drives you mad,
What would have followed if you had.

I'm with Seagull in terms of mixing Naim and Linn stuff but most of my kit - Isobariks, LP12, 250 - were from the days of assumed synergy between the two makes.

I visited the Linn factory with a 'Linn-ie' mate in January and then attended their showcase store in Glasgow. What surprised me was the fact that no attempt had been made to set the system up properly. Everything was on a heavy sideboard, preamp, Lingo, Linto and CD were stacked one on top of another and the whole thing was thoroughly uninspiring with a CD12 in place. Despite this, when the LP12 was substituted with a new Akiva it was utterly transformed although clearly capable of being made very much better.

Dave

I use Linn front and back, Naim amps - I think the system Seagull refers to above may be mine - and for me, it works fine.

Having heard TOP Linn amps they can sound stunning - but I would agree that for mortals, what I have heard of Naim stuff is more engaging.

Regardless of what anyone says, what really counts is what YOU think. If it sounds better, it is better.

Mike

On the Yellow Brick Road and happy

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Originally posted by sean:
Syd,

Robert Ritchie is no longer a Linn dealer, which is a shame as I would like to hear an Akiva, so would now have to go to the Linn shop in Glasgow. This would of course be in an all Linn system which is not what I run.

I don't want to buy blind so what to do?

Sean.

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That's interesting as both the Linn and Robert Richie websites list them as dealers as of today. Perhaps they have'nt been updated in a while?

Yours in Music

Syd

OK its now my turn to wade in.

I used to own a predominantly Naim based system (CDX/72/HiCap/110/Kans) and bought a 2nd cheaper Linn system for my flat in London (Genki/Kolektor/LK140/Katans).

Doing this brought home to me the differences between the two systems, and the fact that single-manufacturer synergy is important.

Here are the differences, I have noticed.

* Linn is the better brand at synchronising the timing between multiple musicians. Therefore Linn is far better with the boogie-factor
* Naim is better at retaining and highlighting detail.
* Both are excellent at making the tunes more singable, although Linn does beat Naim in this respect.
* Naim throws a wider sound-stage.
* Linn has a bit more airiness, but Naim has a bassier sound (which I prefer). However moving Linn speakers closer to the back wall makes it sound much bassier.
* The Linn setup in the Harrods display area is indeed dire (As was the case with the Hammersmith shows). However the same can be said for several of Naim's show demos.

My personal verdict is that when Naim beat Linn on the boogie factor, that's when I'll switch back to Naim.

Consequently I sold the Naim system and bought an LP12/Ekos/Lingo/Klyde/Linto. Even my demo between an Ekos and Aro echoed the very same differences.

Seriously guys - the gauntlet has been throw. You've addressed the looks and improved on the detail, tonality and the tunefulness of the midrange gear; but you must now focus on improving the boogie factor.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Linn Binn Sinner

[This message was edited by Andrew Randle on THURSDAY 30 October 2003 at 13:53.]

And now that Andrew has waded in, I might as well jump in...

My experience has been exactly the opposite--Naim gear has always been much more tuneful. By that I mean the ability to identify individual musical threads--whether by single or multiple instruments--while still integrating them into a complete and coherent musical whole. So if you want to follow the tune being played by the brass section, as opposed to what the pianist is playing, Naim systems have always, for me, let me do that while the Linn systems I've heard never do. So I completely (but respectfully) disagree with Andrew. ;-)

A couple of specific comparisons might help. The Aro/Ekos debate has raged on for what seems like forever. For me, the Aro does a much better job of presenting both the strands that make up music and at presenting the musical whole. While the Ekos is impressive sounding, once you live with it for a while you realize it is injecting its own character into the mix--there is less difference, sonically and musically, from record to record with the Ekos than with the Aro. As an example, on Bob Mould's album Workbook, on the song "Lonely Afternoon," there is a killer guitar solo. With the Aro, you can feel it more and articulate the guitar solo from the other instruments more clearly. With the Ekos you can obviously still hear it, but it is harder to make out and therefore less intense.

A second comparison is between the CD12 and CDS2. The CD12 presents terrific sound--it is airy, detailed, and informative. The CDS2 sounds much more direct--it provides a more direct path to the heart of the music. A specific example: On Lou Reed's album Ecstasy, the first track (Paranoia...) has more "snap" on the CDS2 than on the CD12, which (seemingly) tries to "pretty up" the track--which is the exact wrong thing to do. The lyrics are similarly easier to follow on the CDS2--something that can be very challenging on a Lou Reed record.

Finally, I forget who said it, but I generally agree that Linn amps are clear and detailed, but a bit clinical. Naim amps are, IME, a lot more engaging and seem to offer superior grip--nothing wandering in and out of the song!

All that said, hifi is intensely personal. So I have little tolerance for religious zealots. If you like something, great. Feel free to say that you like it, and why. But please refrain from the "if you don't buy this you're an idiot" harangues. They say more about the person saying them than the person might wish...

Best,

Bob

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Originally posted by Andrew Randle:
* Linn is the better brand at synchronising the timing between multiple musicians. Therefore Linn is far better with the boogie-factor
* Naim is better at retaining and highlighting detail.
* Both are excellent at making the tunes more singable, although Linn does beat Naim in this respect.
* Naim throws a wider sound-stage.
* Linn has a bit more airiness, but Naim has a bassier sound (which I prefer). However moving Linn speakers closer to the back wall makes it sound much bassier.
* The Linn setup in the Harrods display area is indeed dire (As was the case with the Hammersmith shows). However the same can be said for several of Naim's show demos.

My personal verdict is that when Naim beat Linn on the boogie factor, that's when I'll switch back to Naim.

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thanks for your impressions Andrew.
Altho, I only have Linn and Naim front end, I share the same sentiments as you.
I do not find CDX2 particularly slow in this system ( it did in another, however ), where Ikemi comes ahead over CDX2 is the firm grip in midbass and slightly more countoured low bass. This is probably influencing the less *boogie-factor* for Naim player I think. When I put on a Yello disc, explsossiveness isnt't simply there with CDX2 yet I didn't feel it was dragging its heel.

Where CDX2 shines is midrange and treble projections. It sounds less trite and synthetic. Noise floor on Ikemi seems to be higher and this might have something to do with it. Retaining resolution and spotlighting details without sounding hackneyed is difficult for any digital gear and CDX2 narrowly escapse this trap.

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Originally posted by Bob Edwards:
A second comparison is between the CD12 and CDS2. The CD12 presents terrific sound--it is airy, detailed, and informative. The CDS2 sounds much more direct--it provides a more direct path to the heart of the music.

Finally, I forget who said it, but I generally agree that Linn amps are clear and detailed, but a bit clinical. Naim amps are, IME, a lot more engaging and seem to offer superior grip--nothing wandering in and out of the song!

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CD12 has more grownup sound than the rest of Linn digital which makes sense that as you go up the ladder, what you gain ( most of the time ) is greater resolution and more hi-fi trimmings. And this sometimes suck a life out of music or inability to carry a tune with conviction. And this is not just Linn. I've noticed most *flagship* players in any number of companies' product line. This is why sometimes, I prefer an entry level player over costlier ones.

Assuming a difference between CDS2 and newer CDS3, I wonder if Naim flagship player also guilty of this?

I've just chosen Naim having copared with a similarly priced Linn system. If I'd made my mind up at the time I might just have gone for the more relaxed Linn sound. As the days went by though it was my recollection of the more exciting Naim that did it for me.

The bonus for me is that the fit and finish of the Naim kit is in a different leagur to the Linn.

Good Luck, whatever you choose.

RogerH