Chord DAC64

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
Can be used with Naim CDP?

Alex

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Now then, Alex, you're just trying to wind Paul up, aren't you? I'm sure you've followed Naim CD players, Digital Outs and the case for and against... ;-)

cheers, Martin

I haven't a clue what their model numbers were but the TAG DVD cost £4k and the Chord DAC cost £2k.

If I were thinking about spending £6k on a front end source, this combo would be top of my 'must audition' list. I think the new Naim cd player at £12k-£15k will be totally, absolutely, stuningly unbelievable if it is going to succeed in this market place.

I do hope the new Naim will succeed, because i'm holding back at the moment.

Cheers

Don

Anyway, I have no idea what sort of ears Jimmy Hughes or Don have or what they listen out for, but when people start saying that a 4 second buffered Chord DAC64 coupled to a relatively cheap transport can equal or better vinyl then I sit up and take notice.

I adore my CDS2/CDPS but I also know that it is bettered in every department by a mid spec LP12 (Un-Cirkused but Serviced, Ittok/ES Troika. 3 levels of Mana).

Leaving the CDS2 and its replacement out of it, I have a bad feeling about the following comparison: CDX/XPS vs 2.5K Transport (Meridian?) with Chord DAC64. Anyhow, no point speculating, I'm going to have a listen!

TC - I suggest you line up a dem too and then decide on the basis of which you prefer sonically.

Alex

Must have been the same DAC we were listening to, I had forgotten, but now remember the 4 second buffer which apparantly gets rid of ALL the JITTER......

....coupled to a relatively cheap transport can equal or better vinyl then I sit up and take notice.

Agreed, the TAG at £4k is RELATIVELY cheap. For some reason, however, the demonstrator seemed to suggest the TAG was really the ONLY transport that worked this well with the Chord DAC. Perhaps, but being the sceptical old sod that my wife tells me I am, it might have also had something to do with availability and, dare I say it, a decent reurn for a dealer (no, I couldn't say it...profit!). So if the Meridian doesn't send shivers down your spine....try the TAG.

Anyway, it did convince me that really good digital sources are here, with lots more just around the corner!

PS I asked and I don't think it can be used with Naim because I think it uses an optical 'in'

Cheers

Don

Anyway, the TAG CDT20 transport is supposed to work equally well (if not better for straight CD replay) at £1500 and that was the 'relatively cheap' I had in mind.

Regards,

Alex

One thing I have considered, though, is the addition of an uprated clock for my DR6000 - which would be worthwhile as I will keep this regardless of whatever CD player I end up with - the Trichord clock 3 seems to be highly rated, although I am aware that there are equally worthwhile alternatives...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

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Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
_when people start saying that a 4 second buffered Chord DAC64...... _

Must have been the same DAC we were listening to, I had forgotten, but now remember the 4 second buffer which apparantly gets rid of ALL the JITTER......

_....coupled to a relatively cheap transport can equal or better vinyl then I sit up and take notice. _

Agreed, the TAG at £4k is RELATIVELY cheap. For some reason, however, the demonstrator seemed to suggest the TAG was really the ONLY transport that worked this well with the Chord DAC.

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Don,

bits is bits.

If the buffering (& presumably re-clocking) gets rid of the jitter in the datastream why should the DAC64 not work on the end of a £99 budget CD deck?

cheers, Martin

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why should the DAC64 not work on the end of a £99 budget CD deck?

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a) Yes, I'm sure it would on x phases of Mana; but b) A better engineered, isolated and made transport must surely improve matters.

Alex

The actual bits provided by a £99 CD player digital out are the same as those of a £4K Tag transport. The only difference between them should be the clean-ness of the waveform of the bits on the connecting fibre.

If the buffering is actually doing anything useful, then it should be eliminating all jitter on the incoming signal.

If you need a £4K player to get a good result from the DAC64 then it suggests the buffer is just more marketing mumbo-jumbo and is doing nothing useful.

cheers, Martin

P.S. I am not disputing the performance of the beast, just pointing out that the supposed explanation of it's performance may be marketing hype and feature-itis.

Tried Linn Ikemi as transport - this was a bad mismatch. Not synergistic at all.

2 people I know have tried it on the end of their Linn CD12's in Chord systems with astounding results, the DAC64 bringing about significant gains over the standard CD12 (ouch!). The CD12/DAC64 combo beat the TAG/DAC64 combo.

My £600 Nakamichi DV-10s DVD player as transport into the Chord was better than the Ikemi and the Densen Beat B400 I so I sold my Densen and am saving for the Chord.

You can change the buffer from no buffer to 2 seconds and thence to 4 seconds. Different transports sound best with different settings. Changing the buffering has definite effects on timing, resolution and depth. Although bits is bits, the Chord is manipulating those bits quite heavily so the bits that go in aren't necessarily the bits that get converted to analogue. The buffering has a significant effect, but so does the transport. Given that a stand can make a significant difference, it's reasonable to assume that a transport can make a similar one, buffer or no.

In direct comparison to the CDS2, there's an element of swings and roundabouts. The TAG/Chord brings about new levels of resolution, layering, and arguably better timing, but the CDS2 has more swing and looseness (analogueness?) to it than the combo. The big Naim CD player will annihilate the TAG/Chord combo if the 500-effect is anything to go by!

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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Originally posted by Frank Abela:
You can change the buffer from no buffer to 2 seconds and thence to 4 seconds. Different transports sound best with different settings. Changing the buffering has definite effects on timing, resolution and depth. Although bits is bits, the Chord is manipulating those bits quite heavily so the bits that go in aren't necessarily the bits that get converted to analogue. The buffering has a significant effect, but so does the transport.

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Sound like the buffer isn't isolating the DAC from the transport very well.

Is this an upsampling DAC?

cheers, Martin

I spoke to a dealer I trust and who has a fairly open mind. The problem is they've just booted TAG into touch and have no direct experience of the TAG Transport and the Chord DAC. But they do have the Chord DAC and agree that it's crap with Linn CDPs. They believe it works well with the Rega Jupiter and I intend to listen to this combination.

Chord will soon release their own transports, the cheapest of which is likely to be 3K and therefore not in my 'Hi-Fi for nothing' category.

In no way have I given up on my CDS2. The dealer thought it a 'no brainer' in Naim's favour but added that if resolution, clarity and 'hi-fi-ness' was your bag then its a very close call. He did offer a swap without hesitation! and also suggested the 'vinyl' must have been Pink Triangle - a nice touch.

Alex

It's interesting that you should say the buffer doesn't isolate from the transport very well. Why should it isolate at all? Again, although bits is bits, it's not as simple as that, and I dispute the notion that all transports should pump out the same bits from any one CD. If that were the case, then all transports would sound the same. They don't, so there must be a difference in the bits they're sending down to the DAC, whether they're not retrieving the same bits (unlikely) or whether it's a clocking issue (more likely).

Your suggestion is a bit like saying that a Gyrodec should sound the same as an LP12 since they're both suspended decks. The fact is they're implemented quite differently and come out with vastly different results...

Alex, I agree with your dealer about the Rega Jupiter - I'd forgotten to mention that this was also a favourable combination. Also, note that the CD12 works great and I haven't tried the Genki.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

But yes, it was the Ikemi which didn't work well with the Chord DAC ITHO.

And <<The big Naim CD player will annihilate the TAG/Chord combo if the 500-effect is anything to go by!>> Sure. But at what price? Will it blow away a CD12/Chord? A fairer comparison I'm sure. I'm not saying it won't BTW.

Alex

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Appologies about the e-mail address. I have now corrected this.

I don't recall the TAG DVD product title, but there was clearly 'something' about this particular product that made it work well with the DAC. Even if the less expensive CD player works better elsewhere it MIGHT NOT work as well with the Chord DAC.

However, I await your auditon report with much interest.

BTW, my listening session with the TAG/Chord didn't include a direct comparison with vinyl. I assessed that the TAG/Chord sounded better in two ways. First based on familiarity (memory?) of my LP12 system and second on the fact that it sounded a lot better than the cdsii and I know a cdsii doesn't sound as good as my LP12.

Hope this makes sense!

Cheers

Don

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Originally posted by Alex S.:
Your scepticism for anything non-Naim is admirable Martin.

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I repeat:-

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P.S. I am not disputing the performance of the beast, just pointing out that the supposed explanation of it's performance may be marketing hype and feature-itis.

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I have not read the review of the beast (and of course I haven't heard it). I have 'gathered' from the discussions about it that the "4 second buffer" is presented as an "explanation" of it's superb performance, through isolating it from jitter in the source.

It is obviously not performing this function, since it is still dependent on the quality of the transport. Have I mis-understood? Is this function claimed for the buffer or not?

Please note, this does not mean that I assume it sounds crap when partnered with £4K-£12K of transport.

Perhaps Naim and others are laughing at our collective ignorance (ok-mine at any rate!). Or perhaps Naim are dead worried their kit doesn't display this phenomena and TAG are dead worried theirs does but they haven't the foggiest notion why!

When one product clearly sounds better than another, as the TAG/Chord did to me compared to the cdsii, then I like to have some idea as to why and I like to have it corroberated elsewhere and independently. I haven't had this corroberation yet and I haven't heard any explanation for the phenomena.

I know this doesn't particularly help so I am still holding back.

Cheers

Don

[This message was edited by Don Atkinson on WEDNESDAY 12 December 2001 at 22:07.]

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Originally posted by Frank Abela:
Martin,

It's interesting that you should say the buffer doesn't isolate from the transport very well. Why should it isolate at all? Again, although bits is bits, it's not as simple as that, and I dispute the notion that all transports should pump out the same bits from any one CD.

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Date: 8-Jul-99 09:50
Author: julian vereker

On the majority of Cds, most of the time, there are no uncorrected errors in the data stream.

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As JC says, the bits themselves are the same.

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If that were the case, then all transports would sound the same. They don't, so there must be a difference in the bits they're sending down to the DAC, whether they're not retrieving the same bits (unlikely) or whether it's a clocking issue (more likely).

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I agree, the only mechanisms I've seen discussed to explain sound differences are bit errors or jitter.

I can't see the point of the buffer unless it's to isolate the electronics from jitter in the data-stream.

Is there any tie-in between which buffer setting works best and the claimed level of jitter on the digital output of the transport?

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Your suggestion is a bit like saying that a Gyrodec should sound the same as an LP12 since they're both suspended decks. The fact is they're implemented quite differently and come out with vastly different results...

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Analogue works by different rules. So many ways for vibration to affect micro-metre or nano-metre measurements taking place at the stylus.

cheers, Martin

Perhaps, Chord could squeeze more out of their DAC by using a superb low phase noise clock, a top notch PSU , and a good impedance matched connection (definitely not anything with phonos)or (preferably) a wide band optical connection.

Unfortunately a really good clock tends to cost a lot more than even a high-end CD player. Food for thought though.

[This message was edited by Martin M on WEDNESDAY 12 December 2001 at 21:51.]

when I first wrote my response, it included several mechanisms by which jitter could be re-introduced after read-out from the buffer.

cheers, Martin

Thanks. Can you think of any more apart from the ones I've listed?

Upsampling (not integer oversampling) strikes me as a extremenly good way of introducing jitter. I can only imagine that the 'warmth' some talk about given by upsampling is in fact an artifact of low-rate jitter introduced by the upsampling process.

Martin

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Originally posted by Martin M:
Martin,

Thanks. Can you think of any more apart from the ones I've listed?

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Martin,

the biggest one I can think of is that the electronics processing the incoming data stream (feeding into the buffer) will put time-dependent strain on the power supply, which will be in time with the jitter-affected signal.

This will put input-related jitter back into the system.

cheers, Martin

That's a bummer. My local Naim dealer was enusing about the DAC64, and I was going to try it with my Karik III. Perhaps I still will, to see if the rumour is true.

What other £1000 CD transport works well?

DS