'Bad Mains Day' or is it?

Posted by: Jez Quigley on 11 November 2001

Yesterday my system sounded 'grey' it was all there except there was no sweetness, and it was uninvolving. I even started to consider that the Karik knockers might have something. Then in the evening it sounded ab fab again, so much so that I stayed up listening to it until 2am which is exceedingly late for me. I know people say it sounds better late at night, but I have had it sounding ab fab at working hours, and not so good at late night too and vice versa - no pattern.

I have a dedicated spur and earth, the temperature of the room is controlled, I hadn't had a drink, 'tweaked' or changed anything , its constantly powered up etc, and there doesn't seem to be any pattern to the on/off song.

I'd really like us to work together to bottom this, e.g. is there anyone out there who has solved this problem, do supercap owners still have 'bad mains days', is there any common factors? Or are we barking up the wrong tree entirely and the problem is humidity, barometric pressure or lunar cycles?

What is Naim's view?

When it's good its REALLY good, I want it like that all of the time.

Posted on: 26 November 2001 by David Dever

Of the power conditioners I've had the (dis-) pleasure to compare, the PS Audio units mangled the sound the least (not an endorsement, by any means), yet enough that one would prefer raw unadulterated mains on a dedicated circuit at a significant cost savings.

Once you take into the account the (transient) volt-amp rating for these devices, you start to run out of power very quickly...

Let's consider a typical Series 5 system (ratings gleaned from the rear panel):

CD5 - 25 VA
NAT 05 - 12 VA
NAC 112 - (n/a)
FLATCAP 2 - 25 VA
NAP 150 - 240 VA

Total rating for Series 5 system: 302 VA. In other words, this is the minimum rating you'd need to adequately juice the system--and this assumes that the power quality is equal to or better than that of an unobstructed dedicated mains circuit (measurable by a variety of means, the better ones being dynamic in method).

Certainly larger systems will demand more power--Mark's system, IIRC, has at least a HICAP, NAP 250, PSC (and an Armageddon?) in it--and is, then, getting close to the upper ceiling imposed by the PS600.

Apply this same line of reasoning to other devices such as balanced power transformers and the like, and you end up with a very expensive requirement for larger systems (or a power waveform re-synthesiser the size of a refrigerator).

Dave Dever, NANA

Posted on: 26 November 2001 by Mark Dunn

Hi all:

Greg wrote:

>It is also not clear whether dedicated mains ->
>Naim-Cap is better or equal to PP 600 -> Naim-Cap. >The dedicated mains solution is considerably
>cheaper.

I have a dedicated spur and dedicated ground and I find the PP 600 makes for a large and *stable* improvement.

Dave wrote:

>Of the power conditioners I've had the (dis-)
>pleasure to compare, the PS Audio units mangled
>the sound the least...

Dave, which one did you try? PS Audio say that the little PS 300 is not a good match for driving a power amp, regardless of size. General opinion is that the PP 600 is a different kettle of fish (or can of worms).

>Certainly larger systems will demand more power--
>Mark's system, IIRC, has at least a HICAP, NAP
>250, PSC (and an Armageddon?) in it--and is, then, >getting close to the upper ceiling imposed by the >PS600.

Perfectly correct. I was very careful when selecting and auditioning the PP 600 (at home) that it didn't strangle the music in any way. I did mention on the 'Old Forum' that as you get into larger Naim systems, you require more and more PowerPlants and it soon becomes impractical. I do still contend though that for a mid Naim system like mine it's a very good investment. At least it has been for me.

It's a shame I'm on the road this week (as usual) as I know Mr.'K' will be in my neck of the woods and I would've liked his input.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn

Posted on: 26 November 2001 by Jez Quigley

Since starting this thread more than 2 weeks ago I havn't had a bad mains day, which is just as well as I saw the PS Audio at Manchester and I would have had to remove one of the sofas from the room to make floor space for it!

I wonder if you could now help out the guys in the thread about overheating 250's.

Posted on: 26 November 2001 by Paul Stephenson

"buzzing, transformer humming, bad mains"

We have lots of proto's that are completely quiet running, that icludes missing out a fair junk of the music too. All of the techniques we have used including smps have under performed, go and have a listen.

[This message was edited by Paul Stephenson on TUESDAY 27 November 2001 at 08:53.]

Posted on: 27 November 2001 by Mark Dunn

Hi all:

Shahreza wrote:

>mark, how come the 102 rather than something
>higher?

No more money, large motorcycle, wife. Not necessarily in that order.

Yours dejectedly,
Mark Dunn