Dispatches on Channel 4 - The Muslim Reformation.

Dear Erik.
The world need debates.
And tolerance.
No other kind of future at my eyes.

Ciao

quote:

Originally posted by Gianluigi Mazzorana:
Dear Erik.
The world need debates.
And tolerance.
No other kind of future at my eyes.

Ciao

Gianuigi,

Agreed.

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
European Muslims will determine how the religion survives in the next century'.

The bottom line is it would be better if religion failed to survive. Its persistence is depressing and dangerous. Oh and fucking stupid.

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
European Muslims will determine how the religion survives in the next century'.

The bottom line is it would be better if religion failed to survive. Its persistence is depressing and dangerous. Oh and fucking stupid.

EW,

Well that is one way of looking at it. However the reality is that religion (especially the theistic religions which require a good dollup of stupidity to survive and will therefore do very nicely IMO)wont be disappearing any time soon. The world needs more people like Tariq Ramadan whose common sense approach in the face of entrenched ignorence is to be applauded and supported and thus the danger of fanaticsm will be reduced. Flexibility, tolerence and respect is what is required and careful words too.

Regards,

Erik

Erik,

I know what you mean, but I don't think the "fanatics" are quite the fringe that the voice of reason would like us to think. Nor that - ehem! - certain religions we get into trouble for dissing in public are quite as benign as nice intelligent and reasonable chaps would like to have us believe!

It's a sad fact of life that the Voice of Reason in these arguments is quite unwilling to smell what it shovels.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:
Erik,

I know what you mean, but I don't think the "fanatics" are quite the fringe that the voice of reason would like us to think. Nor that - ehem! - certain religions we get into trouble for dissing in public are quite as benign as nice intelligent and reasonable chaps would like to have us believe!

It's a sad fact of life that the Voice of Reason in these arguments is quite unwilling to smell what it shovels.

EW

EW,

I must point out that the documentary was about Islam in Europe which is, of course, less fundamentalist than say Islam in Iran. Tariq Ramadan plus many of the senior Muslims he interviewed were very very clear on their contempt for violent fundamentalists whom they called evil and deluded. They made plain there is nothing in the Koran that encourages or excuses suicide bombers or pre-emptive strikes or attacks on civilians. He accepted there is alot of work to do but felt that there has been an upsurge of support for a reinterpretations of the koran across Europe and even showed women debating with men in mosques. This would have been unheard of 5 years ago. I hope that Tariq Ramadan and others can lead a crusade (for want of a better word)against the fundamentalists by the peaceful means he demonstrated in the documentary. This has to start somewhere, sometime. Hopefully it will continue in Europe and then spread futher afield. Good luck to him says I.

Regards,

Erik

quote:

Originally posted by erik scothron:
They made plain there is nothing in the Koran that encourages or excuses suicide bombers or pre-emptive strikes or attacks on civilians.

Well it's a bit of a moot point, and the argument is stale, but it's hard to get away from the fact that one can find plenty of belicose Koranic verses beatifying pretty much any amount violence against the kaffir.

quote:

Good luck to him says I.

He'll probably need it.

EW

quote:

Originally posted by Earwicker:

quote:

Good luck to him says I.

He'll probably need it.

Yep, I'm sure he will. He has stuck his neck out somewhat.

Eric,

living in a Muslim country I can't help noticing what an effective means of population control our local brand is. Is it any coincidence most Arab states are effective dictatorships?

I hope Tariq gets his wish, however. Not exactly being expert on this but from recent first hand, a reformation is exactly what is required. Such change would have to come from the female population methinks - so he may have a long wait.

Dave

quote:

Originally posted by Bodger:
Eric,

living in a Muslim country I can't help noticing what an effective means of population control our local brand is. Is it any coincidence most Arab states are effective dictatorships?

I hope Tariq gets his wish, however. Not exactly being expert on this but from recent first hand, a reformation is exactly what is required. Such change would have to come from the female population methinks - so he may have a long wait.

Dave

Hi Dave,

I believe Yemen has a particularly appalling history of discrimination against the fair sex? I've been to a few muslim countries (all dictatorships though mostly relatively benign compared to some)where they often seek to excuse the descrimination of their women by saying 'well its nothing compared to Yemen'. I've never been to Yemem myself. What is it with that Freudian obsession with those silly knives the men have?

I'm sure you are right about the wait but at least it is a step in the right direction.

All the best,

Erik

Erik,

The women here are the ones who do the work. The men are wilfully ignorant and sit around chewing Qat. Our best emplyees in the office are - er, women.

At least they can drive a car, vote and stand for parliament. Try that on in Saudi and they'll get stoned in public.

The chaps have no reason to change things though as they are atop the food chain as it were. Thus the status quo is very comfortable. Ah well, elections in September - look out for me on Sky News when the trouble kicks off.

Dave