Aging Ears-Do they affect sy(i)stem perfromance debates

I think the only truely valid comparisons are A/B ones where only ONE component is changed in the sistem.

Trying to compare what you hear now with something heard in another time and place is meaningless (a bit like the "would Liverpool of the mid-eighties beat Man U of the mid-nineties" kind of debate).

As for moving up the naim range, someone here (forgot who, sorry) said that, when upgrading you should skip a level (e.g. from a CD5 to CDS2, missing out a CDX altogether). I think for significant improvement that is probably true.

You said...

"Anyway I get a lot of enjoyment from listening to music from an at least decent HiFi system which is what matters most."

I couldn't agree more...

Geoff,

Quote:-

SOOOOO!!. Am I missing an awfull lot because I got old too early for the "hitech" that seems to be on offer in HiFi today.
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No Geoff I just think your being honest and admitting there is no real difference in these small tweaks that people make.

Yes I agree there are differences in adding new equipment as you say in adding a power supply. However some people just like to exagerate on the real improvement. I have heard an improvement in all of my upgrades but like you it has not been a "knicker wetting" experience.

As for some of these tweeks like putting corks under stands I beleive the only improvement is in their minds as they refuse to admit that is no real difference in the sounds.

As for age yes there is some deterioration in your hearing over age but it shouldn't stop you appreciating a decent hi-fi.

Regards

NB

Geoff, I've tried many tweaks where I cannot hear any difference, so you're not alone. Other upgrades that people recommend as being huge changes have seemed to be subtle chnges to me. Yes our hearing degrades over time, but your last paragraph is the important one, if you're enjoying the music you've got things right. If you find tweaks that improve it, fine, if not you're still enjoying the music.
Noel.

Geoff - you a are but a young strippling compared to me if your declared dob is correct.<g> (by 5 weeks)

I used the age card to justify my last major upgrade before it got too late.

We all suffer hi frequency loss of sensitivity as we get older however the capabilities of the diffrent people at the same age can be very different. I once tested a same age colleague and he could not detect sound at greater than 2.5khertz while I could detect a 13khertz sound - he was not at all interested in music or hifi.

I have been able to appreciate upgrade benefits from both cable, mains and big box upgrades in the way bass is presented and the way detail, image and atmosphere is presented. Atmosphere may be a speed related issue.


If you have a good frequency sensitivity range for your age. The ability to detect a difference is more a result of your personality - ie if you listen carefully rather than casually you can detect difference.

Perhaps having a pedantic attention to detail attitude may then have a siginificant affect on you.

Finally you have the inhibition factor based on self justification of the cost of the change

Just some rambling thoughts from the scrap heap of life.

Derek

Geoff,

Hearing does degrade over the years, one of the reasons elderly people don't like loud dance music, they can't hear the higher frequencies and therefore it all sounds like WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP.

I also don't think the huge differences talked about are that large, they might be there but get exagerated.

If you are happy listening to your system and feel no need to upgrade or tweak then don't worry about it, just enjoy it.

cheers

Matthew

"one of the reasons elderly people don't like loud dance music, they can't hear the higher frequencies and therefore it all sounds like WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP"

other reasons...

There's no tune, not like the old days
The words don't make sense (if you can make out what they are singing/rapping/whatever)
Loud dance music just sounds like WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP

quote:

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elderly people don't like loud dance music, they can't hear the higher frequencies and therefore it all sounds like WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP.

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Matthew,
I think it's because it is all WHUMP WHUMP WHUMP with a bit of BOOM-TIZZ thrown in for good measure

David

"Opinions are like belly-buttons, everybody's got one"

Good thread, I'm surprised no-one has mentioned the assessment methods used are a significant part of the equation.

Whether you can hear to 20kHz or to just 15 or 16kHz is unlikely to have any significant impact upon your assessment of the musical capabilities of a system.

The flat earth brigade have been extolling the virtues of listening to the music, as opposed to listening to the sounds, for years.

It looks as if another major benefit of such methods is the ability to enjoy your system almost unchanged as your hearing starts to degrade.

Adding a PSU for example will have little measured effect on frequency response, although subjectively there can be an impact, yet will have a significant impact upon musical reward.

Just forget about those sweet highs, and get into the groove

Andy.

My understanding, from an essay by J. Gordon Holt (Stereophile founder), is that there are basically 2 types of hearing - frequency response and 'volleying', which is sensitivity to pressure changes, similar to transient response.

Frequency response tends to deteriorate with age, but volleying sensitivity apparently does not.

So age effects only part of hearing ability.

To these possible facts, we must add that different people value different aspects of music and music reproduction differently.

For example, I know my ability to hear high frequencies is less than that of many people, but I am very sensitive to upper mid-range - lower highs (high violins, high trumptes, flutes, clarinets) harshness and congestion. To me, this is where I hear digititis, and I hate it. So NAD and Sony CD players sound better to me than Naim players below the CDS. I'd give up all the high end in the world, I think, to avoid digititis.

Regards.

Phil

Here's a quick tweak that the government pays for. 3 years ago I had a severe ear infection and had to get my ears syringed. THE DIFFERENCE WAS STAGGERING. Just walking home from the surgery was a revelation with all the different birds and their songs easily distinguishable. Even with the system I had then I was amazed at how much detail I had been missing. I've a friend who's a nurse and I get my ears regularily syringed now.

Yours in Music

Syd

Hearing degradation is NOT linear. High frequency attenuation may also be accompanied by spikes at other frequencies, making it appear as just the opposite of high frequency loss has occured.
One can become overly sensitized to low frequency volume, depending on where in their particular hearing spectrum the roll off begins.
Since the home environment is hardly a linear frequency place, some types of hearing attenuation may go completely unnoticed!
At the end of the day, it's your BRAIN that does the processing. If you've ever taken a test for color blindness and couldn't read the number because it was outside your spectrum, that still didn't mean you've never seen the color "n" because it wasn't visible in the masking test.
High frequency attenuation from age probably has almost no impact on one's ability to percieve tweaks.
Bear in mind also that if the brain has processed certain frequencies in the past, it will tend to extrapolate and fill in the blanks later in life. The key being that one has to have been able to percieve those frequencies at some point.
Humans cans be taught to listen. Ears are only the input devices.

Thanks for some great responses people

I agree with a lot of the comments.

For instance I believe prehaps in compensation you "feel" the music frequencies more which may explain how some tracks from a given recording session seem more alive than others. For me there is a certain crossover point in the lower frequencies coming from the rythum section which makes this change happen.

The other thing I agree with is how transitory our memory of exact musical delivery is. At that frist moment when thë system upgrade is first heard is the only moment you ever trully appreciate it. From then on it rapidly takes over as the new standard and the only way to remind yourself of the improvement is to remove it for a brief session.

We are never satisfied for long which prehaps explains why HiFi came to exist in the first place.

GEOFFP

quote:

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The other thing I agree with is how transitory our memory of exact musical delivery is. At that frist moment when thë system upgrade is first heard is the only moment you ever trully appreciate it. From then on it rapidly takes over as the new standard and the only way to remind yourself of the improvement is to remove it for a brief session.

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That is SO true, although the voyage of discovery within your music collection then takes over for while, do those with more records / CD's have longer MTBU (mean time between upgrades)

a.

Really interesting thread. I often wonder why it is that so many of the worlds best wine tasters or car testers or hifi reviewers are past their use-by-date when it comes to their ability to taste, smell, react quickly and hear and yet they still command our attention and respect.

Maybe there is more to great audio equipment than frequency response. Remember years ago when measurements like the THD of an amp was all you needed to know ? People like Naim changed all of that.

As for upgrades, some of my best have been initially disappointing, I suspect because after immediate impressions (for me, normally the sense that the stage gets bigger and everything slows down) I have tried to hear more detail, bass, etc. It's only when I relax and start listening to the music that I realise that the whole landscape has changed.

I think that if you can hear enough to get pleasure from music, most of the steps up the Naim ladder will bring you more pleasure (cash not withstanding).

I've oftened noticed that objective tests and subjective tests don't always correlate. Read a copy of HI FI World and either Noel Keywood or Paul Miller will measure the frequency response and often comment that the item will sound bright or bass shy or whatever and more often than not the subjective reviewer never mentions this or hears the exact opposite.

Yours in Music

Syd

Interestering thread, I guess the
speaker->room->ear->brain
stages are much overlooked in favour of the source->amp->speaker section.

Even a simple thing like popping your ears makes a big difference to hear how you hear music.

Gus

The subjective experience of sound is immensely complex and this is why I hate HiFi reviews that blind you with science.
Hearing does diminish with age and the degree and rate has a significant inheritance.Hearing is also damaged by environmental sound[people living in urban areas have poorer hearing than those living in quieter rural locations]

I wonder whether we experience a fine tuning of our hearing abilities as we inexorably move up the Naim hierachy? Apparently it is possible to "learn" perfect pitch, and you don't necessarily have to be a musical prodigy to achieve this.Like all skills,if not used, it withers.By constantly listening to our ever improving Naim systems, are we improving our ability to hear the various nuances in music?
And does this make us less tolerant of imperfect sound?!

By the way, your hearing will only be affected by wax if there is >95% blockage of your ear canal.

Simon

From personal experience, I can vouch for Syd's point about ear syringing. I think I've written about this before, but then the elderly are entitled to repeat themselves.

The awful thing about wax build up [and Simon D, it really doesn't have to get to 95% build up to make a difference, believe me] is that it's a slow and imperceptible process.

Here is a simple test which I would recommend everyone to try when they have a spare moment. Rub your thumb and forefinger together next to your ear. Repeat [using the same thumb & forefinger] next to the other ear. If there is any difference in sound, you've got something to wonder about. Unless you have hearing loss from another cause, wax will probably be to blame, and a visit to the doctor's [or better still a practice nurse] is in order. Sadly, some doctors still believe the old wives tale that once you start syringing, then you can begin a vicious circle of wax build up / repeat syringing etc. This is bollocks, but may be encountered.

If you do manage to get it done, then be prepared for a week or so of burn in before your ears return to normal; the initial effect is indescribably harsh on high frequencies, and you probably won't want to listen to your system at all for a bit. The effect is generally astonishing, and when things settle down will probably be the most dramatic upgrade you are likely to be able to perform for free.

throb

Lots of interesting comments

I agree to the "relax sit back and listen" philosophy. For one thing it does wonders for your bank balance and as quoted prolongs the pause between those moments when the dreaded upgrade itch returns.

The key is not to scratch the itch. We all know that once you start scratching you can't stop and there goes the banK balance again.

I am currently only on one of the rungs near the bottom of the ladder (112/Hi-Cap/150. I was planning a slow progression through what one reviewer described as "NAIM's electronic LeggoLand".

Now will I appreciate that more than saving my pennies for longer and going straight for the top end of the ladder in one mad rush of spending?

I see differing opinions. Lots of people have obviously enjoyed the upgrade process as a long drawn out affair, I am sure mostly due to lack of large chunks of funds, but with many stages along the way to enjoy. If you do it in one mad jump to say the 252 and the 500 do you appreciate it just as much I wonder?

The comments about ear washing are indeed true.
Also,
I suffer from unbalanced hearing so that marvellous invention the "balance" control has to be gently applied, but it seems to work. Interestingly I often swap the red and black phono pugs over to reverse the division of music. I tend to find having the low frequencies on the poorer hearing side gives a slightly more together sound. Have others tried this swap you may be surprised that you to have a preffered arrangement if you try it.

The other big advantage of age is not needing much sleep. I find that my HiFi sounds at it's best when most people around the area have stopped using their electricity and gone to bed. Certainly having all that electricity to myself gives a boost to the sound quality.
I guess you could veiw it as the next step after a dedicated Mains spur. Maybe the ultimate power tweak is a dedicated electricity generator!

GEOFF P