New speakers for me...

See my recent post in Colours To The Mast thread.

Bob

My old bog standard Thorens TD318 /1042 through an old Sony ES amp into the Credos are currently putting my main system into second place in the old enjoyment stakes.

They really are a fine all round speaker that can really give it out at quite low levels.

CFN

P

The are bigger than Kans and produce significantly more bass (particularly noticable with kick-drums) when placed close to the back wall (3-4 inches). Although their official stands look a bit space-age they do suit the Katans very well. With stands they're £735.

I've heard the Katans drive a large-ish room (25'x18') to good volume levels. They are also more efficient than the Kans. Despite having a bass port (same with Royds and Credos) they are very controlled and you are likely to get on with them.

Another possibility are the Ninkas. I held off from buying them because they are too big for my room - and are therefore even more likely to suit your room requirements. More efficient and more bass than the Katans, and they are infinite baffles. Although I believe they require a bit more room behind them than the Katans (not sure on that one though). At about £1250 with bases (and you MUST buy the bases) they may fall at the top-end of your budget allocation.

If you're in London at anytime, then you're welcome to hear my own Katans.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

Kabers are out due to being too tough for the Nait 2. They are a good speaker though.

I have never heard IBLs, though was under the impression that they are if anything a slightly better Kan, bass leanness seems to be a criticism levelled as often at them as at Kans. Me want bass.

Credos. Probably the favourite so far - they have been around for a bit so second hand ones do come up now and again, I suspect I consider them to be worth the extra over Intro 2s. I guess Intros are about 350 quid second hand and Credos about £700. I think the better tweeter would swing it for me, plus plenty of growing room. They are very efficient, so the Nait would work perfectly. The previous owner of my Nait 2 used it with Credos (though I never heard them). One key thing with Credos is that I know them, so they would not be a blind buy.

Katans are in with a chance, I need to hear them, If I am down in London at any point I will take Andrew up on his offer to have a listen. Will they fill a room of the size of mine?

Paul D has a interesting idea, but neglects to spot Heybrooks best speaker! The first HB2 was by far the one to have, and is a speaker I keep an eye out for on Loot now and again. It is old enough to be worth very little, but I remember them being a truly great performer, and being a lot fuller than Kans. To be honest the Katan sounds like it could be a modern HB2 from the way its been described here.

I'm still interested in the Neat floorstanders, and I have in the past heard a pair of Royd Abbots sounding excellent driven by a little Ion Systems integrated, so they may be a contender too.

Tony.

P

I'm listening to an old pair of MS20's right now, in my office system. I think they date from the early/mid-eighties.

Not a bad sounding speaker, considering they were budget items, a bit woolly in the bass, but not bad at all!

Chris L

P.S. Tony, I'm shocked, I thought the Kans were the be-all and end-all!

As I've said before, I'd give Tukans a try. I've got the latest version with the newest tweeter that came out in 2000... it has three bars across the front of it. I'm using them in a very large room 25 X 20 that is open to another large room about the same size. They sound very full range to me and never leave me with the feeling of any lack of bass.

Maybe Kans would work equally well in my system, I'm not sure as it's been years since I've heard them. Though tonally Tukans sound more like my Quads than Kans ever did and I have compared my Quads to Kans and DMS. The Quads sounding very comparable to DMS in the bass, to me better.

Hell why don't you pick up a nice pair of Quads and be done with it. A Nait will drive them fairly well, I lived with that combo for awhile.

Damn I'm going to have to drag em down out of the loft and fire em up again now!

Bonus Naim points to anyone spotting the correlation between the other pair of speakers lurking in the loft there.

P

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They used to sound real neat ontop of the HBS1 stands too. Gave them a bit more solidity and cured that wooliness IIRC

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I used mine on lead shot filled Linn Sara stands, until my Dad took the stands back :-( And yes, the bass was better on those.

As well, reminiscence over, back work..... maybe!

Chris L

What's with this sudden craving for bass? We have a couple of things in common, we both like flat earth systems, don't like ported cabs, & both play bass guitar. The last bit is probably the most relevant to my comments.

Most musicians use crap hi-fi, I'm sure you will agree to this. As a bass player when my muso friends pop in they initially expect a system were the bass will kick you in the stomach, but usually at the expense of pitch & timing. They never quite 'get' my system, it does not sound enough like a PA for them, but I know that I could not give house room to ANY of their bass pumping systems. I am beginning to wonder if when you switched from separates to the NAIT your brain filled in the bass a bit. I find if I try a new product my brain will initially compensate for shortfalls in that product.

My experience of Kans is that they really need a 250 to get the grip & bass, along with all that other stuff. 15 years ago I went from a 160 to 250 with Kans & I thought the improvement was far from subtle.

A year ago if someone had posted a similar thread to yours I can imagine a reply on the lines of set up speakers correctly, get a 2nd hand 32, hi-cap, 250 or try an XPS. I'm not saying that Kans are the long haul speaker for you, but I also don't think Credo's are either.

Unless you are really unhappy with the Kans why not try an XPS, yes I know it's a lot of money but I think it might just do what you need.

Best wishes,

Bob.

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My experience of Kans is that they really need a 250 to get the grip & bass

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BTW Tony, Andrew 'Linn's the Dog's Bollox' Randle may be right. I've heard both Katans and Ninkas sounding good, at dealers no less.

Alex

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What's with this sudden craving for bass? We have a couple of things in common, we both like flat earth systems, don't like ported cabs, & both play bass guitar.

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The key factor to my sudden craving for bass is that I have in the past 6 months moved into my own flat, and am using my Kans in a radically bigger room than I have had before. My room is actually quite a good one in that it is clean and not boomy, but it offers very little bass reinforcement to the Kans. Don't for a minute think I am going off Kans, I love the things, its just that they do sound quite absurdly thin on some music in this room.

I have always managed to get stunning results from Kans in the past by placing them on the wide wall, firing across the smallish rooms I have had in the past. This arrangement is simply not possible in my current room, and the rooms physical volume is considerably bigger. This is not a amp thing, I have run the Kans in this room with my old 250, and they sounded too thin with that. The fact that my larger Point 5s actually go a fair way to fix this particular problem proves to me that it is a speaker thing.

As for the XPS, yes I really want one of those, but it would not help my primary source which is the P9 which sounds stunning but equally bass challenged in this room via the Kans. I am very reluctant to simply jump back onto the expensive amp bandwagon, that would make getting a fuller sound cost thousands of pounds rather than a few hundreds - I want to keep a front end first balance to the system. I am not ruling out getting a better amp than the Nait in the future, but I don't want to be forced into it with a speaker choice. I do not want to go back to a back heavy amp, if I do change from the Nait it would be to a 82 / 140 or something like that.

I am convinced the issue here is just simple physics, no matter how good Kans are (and they are bloody great!) it is just not possible to fill a 19' x 13' x 12' room with a 5" bass unit in a tiny little sealed cabinet. They will work great in my studio which is less than half the size.

Tony.

Did an extensive dem of Naim Credo and Neat Mystique to replace Royd RR1. The Credos were 2nd hand so would have been cheaper.

-Credo had a clangy, pots 'n pans quality with too much colored bass. Interestingly, they needed to be pulled out 3-4 feet in the showroom.

-With the Mystique, I wasn't aware of the speaker as much- more music, really. I fully concur with JP's flowiness remarks, but would add they they're also the grooviest speaker I've owned. FWIW, dealer found them brighter balanced than his Kans.

As for the RR1, my impressions of those are on my site. After hearing them with 135s, I feel my 140 wasn't enough for the Royds.

Damn, I'm late.

cheers,

mike

I'm just afraid that you will be dissapointed in the end with the search for a "bigger kan". I bought ProAc Response 2 speakers 'cause I wanted a bigger Kan type speaker and it has been a big headach ever since. I should've chosen the Tab Sigs instead and then added a sub when I (just recently) moved to a much bigger place. The cabinet resonances of the larger speaker drive me bonkers and I'm afraid there is no fixing it.

My next stop may be Katans. Sit against the wall and have a lighter weight stand (my filled stands are heavy man, heavy).

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Also, my 250 just went in for the full service. Will give impressions of that as well when it comes back.

FWIW, I liked the tab 2000 sigs pretty well, but can't comment fully until I get the Kans up and running.

Judd

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Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:

I have heard Intros and Credos many times, and have heard both work well, so they represent safe ground. I suspect the Nait is up to driving them quite well (at 89db they have to be easier than Kans), I really don't want to force myself back onto the amp buying ladder, I am more than happy with the quality of the Nait, though intend to respect its quantity when choosing speakers.

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My Credos were ok at moderate volume levels driven by a 90.3. Changing to a 110 and then a 140 was quite a big improvement but they were by no means bad with the smaller amp. I also heard them with a Nait 3 in the demo and that was also ok.

Credos seem a pretty easy load - I'm using mine with a 12W valve amp and at moderate volume levels thats fine. The sound hardens unpleasantly if you try to go loud though.

Regards
Steve

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I did think of HB2s but rejected them . knowing

1. They have a hole in them. I thought you didn't like speakers with holes in them.
2. They need a lot more power than a Nait to get them going , we used to put a 250 on them and could have done with more.

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Yes, they have a hole in them, though I do not remember it being a portal to pure evil the way many holes in speakers are. I have very good memories of the HB2, though they seemed to work further away from the rear wall that I would ideally like.

The HB2 did have that "no amp on the face of the earth is quite good enough for us" quality, but I managed to get a pretty good sound out of a friends pair with my old Onix OA21. Their owner ran them with a 40 watt Quantum pre / power that decided to leave this earth in a way that left all the HB2s drivers totally dead, in fact it cooked them so good that you couldn't even move the bass drivers in and out! Shame, they were cool speakers.

Tony.

funny, i was just about to suggest this tony. last time i tried this i got better weight from these little 'uns.

ah well... what about alleas? sbls? shahinians?

enjoy

ken

They also look nice.

£750 new.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Back in 1985/86 (IOW deep into the mists of time) Naim had a series of open days at the factory. After the tour they did two demos, small groups of people in a smallish room with a 6 pack Isobarik system, and then to large groups of people (maybe 50+?) in a much larger room with Kans and a range of turntables and the whole amp line up.

The Kans had no problem filling this room, sounding OK even with bass lines and demonstrating the difference between upstream components.

So I think your problems may lie elsewhere. And you're a bit stuck because 'better' loudspeakers will probably sound worse.

(The only Hifi I've bought in the last 6 years or so was an impulse purchase of a pair of old Kans that I think you used to own. I shall get them out of the loft and live with them for a week or so, in a 12x17ish room. Then I'll be able to give a real opinion, but unfortunately not of the Nait/Kan combo. It'll be a late 1980s unmaintained LK280 I have spare.)

Paul

Pre-cirkus LP12, Ekos, Troika. Cirkus versions sound leaner in the bass probably similar to the P9 tonally. This was THE source used when the Kan 2 came out.

Two significant things that have helped me get the bottom end as I want it are m*** under the LP12 and (this is what I suggest you experiment with) sound absorbtion on the wall the Kans are on. Listening position can make a big difference as well. I'm pretty sure you know all this but I think you're losing your faith. Go kneel before your Kans and pray for inspiration.

Regards
Steve

Thats all really, recently went from Minstrels to much bigger PMC. Bought house where lounge is 3 times the size of the old one and the Royds couldn't cope, thats the only reason for the change.
Minstrels are awkward to get set up right but when they are they are Groovy! and make a passable attempt at bass. Sound great with a 180.
Nait may struggle tho'. Should be able to pick up a pair of these for sod all money in England.

Seriously... you should try 'em.

PS.. IMO Doublets not as much fun but bassier

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Don't for a minute think I am going off Kans, I love the things, its just that they do sound quite absurdly thin on some music in this room.

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You've mentioned this a number of times. Which albums, exactly?

Omer sez:

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Maybe try the Rega ELA. And the EL8 works great with Nait2- like you know, it's not as precise as the Kytes, and one bass note in certain rooms sounds weird, but otherwise it is agile bouncy warm

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This is exactly how I feel about all the Regas I've heard, even the Ela MkII. I went on a rant recently about this quality. I don't think you'll like Regas. It sure put a hair across my ass.

Notice how comments on both the Neat and Credo concur?
An amazingly true anecdote- Last month a friend who doesn't give a toss about hi-fi came for a listen:

(Dandy Warhols blasting in the b/g)

Me: So what do you think?

Leon: These are better than your last ones, it's like I'm listening to the music as opposed to listening to the speaker.

Me: Seriously? No sh!t.

Leon: I don't think I can respect this band just for their name.

If Leon can make this obervation, there must be something very special about Neats.
What's the word on the Elite vs. Mystique in terms of drivability, Tony? FWIW, the Mystique and RR1 have similar numbers, yet the Mystique is alot easier to drive.
You need not fear the ports on a Neat, comparted with the AR3a and even Spendor 3/5, the Mystique has the least "porty" bass of the bunch!
Also, Mystiques increased in price by 200ukp to 799, so if you can find an older pair, you'd be getting a particularly sweet deal.
If you do blind-buy the the Neats and end up not liking them, I'll eat my keyboard.

cheerst,

mike