New speakers for me...

Tony,

Something which nobody has mentioned (that I can tell) is the fact that you run a mean lean timing machine at the source end. Can someone in your area lend you an LP12 with its tubby bass lines to see if this is where the problem lies, or if this is a more suitable solution? After all, that was de rigeur in the days of Nait2s and Kans.

If you couldn't live with the LP12's wayward bass and bouncy nature, then you could go lunatic fringe, lose some FEPs (who gives a damn aboutt hem anyway) and start considering some really efficient speakers rather than the run-of-the-mill that's been mentioned thus far? After all, you say you have loads of time to play around so you could always get a listen to something seriously efficient and see what you think.

I'm talking, of course, of things of the ilk of Audio Note and/or Living Voice speakers. They're not discreet. They prefer a little free space (not much) and they're ported. But they're 92 - 96 db/w/m, are seriously dynamic at any volume, have great scale and drama. They don't motor like Kans, but they don't need juice to drive them. For a while, I drove my E's with an early Nait2 (the one with the higher gain than usual) and had problems with it being too loud. Otherwise it sounded great.

The Audio Notes are available second hand all over the place for relatively sensible money. There are three types of speaker, K (small standmount, prefers to be close to the wall, 92 db), J (large standmount, fairly close to wall say 9 - 12 inches, 93-ish db) and E (very large standmounter, fairly close to wall - 9 - 12 inches - 94 db).

All use a SEAS 8 inch main driver and a SEAS tweeter with simple crossovers that guarantee impedance doesn't go below 5 ohms, so it's a really easy drive as you'd expect of speakers designed for use with valve amps. They also come in various guises where the internal wiring changes between copper and silver. The high end silver ones use better drivers of the configuration and are bl**dy expensive, but the copper-wired ones are good too. The K may fit the bill for you. It's relatively bass light by comparison to J and E but it'll have more than the Kan can('t) deliver. The E's go down to 18Hz in the room and they sound like ported speakers in a nice way...(well, I like them:)

I've heard good things about the Living Voice speakers but they're relatively new so I doubt there's many on the 2nd hand market.

You wanted efficiency - these are efficient and then some. The only caveat is if your Nait has high gain, in which case you'd find it difficult to come off the end-stop.

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

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..and that is with them too high up on the Kan stands.

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Just our of curiousity, would you mind switching the kans and heybrooks? That is, put the kans on top - the extra height will probably increase the bass you hear. Room physics again...

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Just our of curiousity, would you mind switching the kans and heybrooks? That is, put the kans on top - the extra height will probably increase the bass you hear. Room physics again...

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Huh? What, actually plonk the Heybrooks on my most lovely immaculate condition Kans? I commented about the Point 5s as being too high as they are designed to sit a couple of inches lower than Kans on the Heybrook HBS1 stand. I took the Kans out of the room whilst I was listening to the Heybrooks. The Kans are back in now.

The Heybrooks were just stuck on the Kan stands, I did not even bother moving the stands to find the best spot. I just plonked the Point 5 on the stand and thought, "it ain't better, but its definitely got more bass and it don't boom". This actually answered the question I was asking, which was "do I need a bigger speaker?"! I actually think I need a bigger speaker than the Point 5s.

Frank has some interesting ideas regarding efficient speakers - are the Audio Notes what I would know as Snells? I have heard the Type K hold a tune in the past. Do they work near a back wall? The Living Voice stuff is too expensive to try - I don't want to screw up what is actually a very well balanced system.

Basically if I can't hit this right with something like a Neat Mystique, Credo, or old Royd floorstander, then I can't be arsed and will just keep things as they are. I am not prepared to empty my non-existent bank balance to achieve it. Bottom line is I am prepared to spend 700-800 quid if it really fixes what I see as being wrong, if all it does is necessitate buying a 2k amp as well then stuff it! I will leave well alone.

As for the Shahinians, I would have thought a pair of Starters or Compasses would shift a bit more air. I am not really looking for a miniature, I already have a fabulous pair of little speakers!

My gut feeling is something like a Neat Mystique will hit the problem and hit it good, plus allow for any future growth, but without demanding it immediately. I will have a listen.

Tony.

Guess I've visited too many dodgy dealers recently who do this as a matter of course

Of course, you *could* try raising the Kans a bit to see what happens. If I get Katans, I'm thinking about the wall brackets as they allow mounting at any height and the height affects the bass and overall balance.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:

Basically if I can't hit this right with something like a Neat Mystique, Credo, or old Royd floorstander, then I can't be arsed and will just keep things as they are. I am not prepared to empty my non-existent bank balance to achieve it. Bottom line is I am prepared to spend 700-800 quid if it _really_ fixes what I see as being wrong, if all it does is necessitate buying a 2k amp as well then stuff it! I will leave well alone.

Tony.

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If you're going to use Credos in a bigger room then I suspect you'll probably need a more powerful amp (although I'm not familiar with the Nait 2 so couldn't confirm that). I don't think you'd need 2K's worth though as a 32.5/110 or 140 would be more than adequate.

Regards
Steve

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My gut feeling is something like a Neat Mystique will hit the problem and hit it good, plus allow for any future growth, but without demanding it immediately.

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I tried a pair of Mystiques last year on an extended home dem. The best way I can describe them is that they simply play music -- any kind of music. What's more they seem to do what you like about Quadraspire stands. They let the music flow. Not boring or dull by any stretch, they convey the temporal direction of music more so than smack you over the head with a driving beat.

Like any speaker in that price range the Mystiques have limitations but none were of a magnitude great enough to get in the way of a good time. The only reason I didn't buy them is that they weren't an across-the-board improvement over my Sorcerers, and I didn't see the point in spending money for a sideways upgrade. And, for me, I'd gain more by upgrading my preamp or CD player, so a speaker upgrade is lower on the list.

I ran the Mystiques with a 250 but they didn't strike me as a difficult load requiring a beefy amp to keep the drivers in line. I strongly suspect a Nait 2 will be fine.

If the Mystiques don't do it for you, give the Petites and Elites a try. Other contenders are the Royd Minstrel SEs, Doublets, Abbots and Sorcerers, as are the Intro IIs (should be OK) and Credos (a bit of a stretch with a Nait). All are miles ahead of 99% of other speakers in the price range. It's simply a matter of finding one that works in your room and with your Nait.

Joe

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However, I think there exists a school of thought that says that Spendors/Harbeths etc are "old fashioned" and sound "warm & cuddly".

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That was my impression of them, as I've only really heard the 3/5, 3/1p and FL6. The FL series are real stinkers. I hope their new series isn't as bad. I didn't get a chance to hear the S100, but do I prefer their old school look.

cheers

As Spendor v. harbeth, I have no heard them. But, I'm told that people who have owned both consider the Spendors a bit warmer, and the Harbeths a bit starker: whatever that means.

Anyway, I', considering the Spendor and Harbeth line pretty seriously, but being in the Midwest, i can't hear a pair of either within 1400 miles of here.

Fortunately, the Harbeth distributer for North America has return policy, and he's fairly liberal about it.

Judd

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Read a bit further back, and I also recommend the Audio Notes and Living Voices. IMHO, the four essential loudspeakers:

1) Linn Katans or Ninkas
2) Naim Credos
3) Living Voice Auditoriums
4) Audio Note series

I believe there is a good Audio Note dealer in Liverpoool.

If you do go for a different loudspeaker, then do keep the Kans in case you move house and suffer from boomy bass

Andrew

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

I once had active Kan 1's and went down to normal, built a 2000Hz 12db Linkwitz passive xover and sold them to a friend, who loved them, but actually complained them moving not enough air. Then I got a pair of old KEF racetrack woofers (type B139) and made 2 sealed (actually lossy vented like Dynaudio did some years ago) bass enclosure of 60L exactly as high as original Kan stands. I positioned the woofers to the top and xover at 250Hz 12dB (took the woofer xover parts from a KEF speaker kit). The Kans then were placed on top of the woofer. Result: I asked myself, why have I sold my Kans ...

Midrange got much clearer and lost coloration, and the sound got bigger the same time.

So, my friend got a half Isobarik with small footprint and effortless sound. He drives the thing with a DIY 10watts class A transistor power amp - no problem at all.

regards,
Hartmut from Munich

Heresy I know, unless you're active. IIRC Kef tried something similar, the KUBE?

Paul

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Originally posted by Dave Cattlin:
You know as well as I do that your next upgrade will be expensive.

...an XPS, a pre-power or JMLabs 906.

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Hmm, can't remember if it's been suggested, but I would expect an XPS to ameliorate thinness in any system.

More tightness & weight.

cheers, Martin

Tony

Better amps and speakers might be just the ticket.

An XPS will certainly work wonders, as you very well know, and those JM Lab thingies are rather good!

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.
It's good to get back to normal.

Given your prediliction for a flat earth sound I would suggest SBL's as being the closest thing to Kan's for speed and clarity but with more bass power.

I have driven my SBL's off my Nait 1 and was surprised how good they sounded even compared to my 102/Hi/180. Given SBL's have decent efficiency and are widely available for around a grand secondhand they might be just the ticket.

If that doesn't appeal what about a high quality sub? A decent REL would I'm sure make all the difference (I liked the Storm III at £800)

Interested in your thoughts,

Jonathan

I do believe that I once passed out from exhaustion atop one of those. Or was it beneath?

Craig

Here goes:

• The Nait stays! Listening to some comments here people are under the impression the only speakers this amp is capable of driving is a certain very inefficient miniature that I already own. Analyse that statement carefully! (hint: small low efficiency sealed speakers are almost always harder to drive than bigger ones, especially ported ones!).

• The P9 stays! Why change the best sounding component in the system? The fact that it is the only component in the system that was bought new, and is therefore the only one I would take a massive loss on selling makes me even less likely to sell.

• The only thing I am prepared to change is the speakers. What I am attempting to do is to find a pair of speakers more sympathetic to the room and location than my Kans - consider it to be a side-grade. I estimate the Kans to have a current market equivalence of about 800 quid, so this is the sector I am hoping to find the answer in.

To put things in perspective, this system works really well! There is nothing wrong with the sound other than a slight lack of low end when listening from the main listening position. Other than that it ranks as one of the best performing systems I have ever heard regardless of cost. All I want to do is to find a slightly warmer and fuller speaker that will integrate with the room requirements better. I refuse to believe this is rocket science or necessitates changing everything upstream.

I'm sorry but dumping everything for something like a LP12 / expensive amp / and some JM Labs speakers (that I don't even especially like!) is simply not a option, it is a solution that does not even remotely meet my requirements. Neither is Mana! This is not a Mana friendly room - I have none of the problems that Mana fixes: e.g. boomy or bloated bass. If I end up with floor standing Neats I may end up with Mana under them, but that is as far as that idea goes.

Many comments on this thread amaze me, do we automatically think that a slight change in tonal balance to integrate a system to a different room costs about 10k? Are we really box sheep? I hope not.

I remain optimistic that this is a simple issue that needs very little effort to put right. I am planning to home dem a pair of Neat Mystiques, and I have a strong suspicion that they will almost certainly fix the bass issue without breaking anything else. Watch this space!

Tony.

PS Dave C - Please come across and actually listen to the P9 (i.e. don’t judge it on someone else's opinion). You have not heard it since I got the Microgroove or since I have fitted the Express Machining counterweight. You will like it (if you allow yourself to!). My system is almost completely unchanged since it was blessed by your good self (I have ditched a shelf off the rack as the phono stage does not like being near to the Naim kit, that is the only change). I'm still waiting for the bog seat shelves, may have to do some chasing soon.

As I said in my earlier post in this thread, I would keep the whole system and get a good REL. I think changing the speakers is a mistake.

cheers

Dev

ps. where did you get your record storage from?
pps. are your tweeters in your Kans originals? If so they might need replacing? A tweeter that's tired affects more things than the treble. How about SBL ones?

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As I said in my earlier post in this thread, I would keep the whole system and get a good REL.

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The REL idea is certainly one that has not been ruled out yet - in a lot of ways it makes the most sense of all options:

• It retains what I like about the Kans (i.e. the Kans).

• It would be a very easy "free hi-fi" move - I could land one from Loot and not loose any cash if I don't like it.

• It does not draw any power from the amp.

• It is tuneable. Could be an important consideration - will give the option of balancing the low end to the room quite precisely.

All in all a very good and logical option indeed. If I am not blown away by the Neats I hope to try in my room within the month, I will very seriously consider the REL option.

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ps. where did you get your record storage from?
pps. are your tweeters in your Kans originals? If so they might need replacing?

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The record storage is an Ikea Expdit or something. It cost 169 quid, and I have had it over a year and it is showing no sign of fainting under the weight of the vinyl.

The Kans are on their original tweeter, they are a late pair of Mk IIs, so are now about 8-9 years old. The treble sounds really excellent, smooth, open, clean, and very detailed indeed, so my suspicion is that the tweeter is ok. I am a strong advocate of hoovering tweeters, so these are nice and clean and don't have the dust and gunk that makes old tweeters sound dull and grainy.

The history of my Kans is interesting, and quite funny in a sick sad way. They have had very little use: The previous owner bought the Kans new, he ran them with a CDS/52/135s. He originally had a smallish room, and like me he was not a volume freak. He later got married to some woman with a severe black box phobia, and was therefore not allowed to keep the system (wimp!). So the Naim kit was all sold, but he couldn't bring himself to ditch such a good pair of Kans as he really liked them and considered them pretty much irreplaceable, so they spent the last 4 years or so prior to me landing them boxed up and unused. He finally came to the conclusion that they were not going to be allowed back into the (her!) living room, so decided to let them go. He advertised them at 200 quid, and after one look I decided not to haggle at all!

So my tweeters have not had that much use! I recently managed to get the grills off without causing any damage at all, so I have tightened the bass drivers up a little and given the tweeters a good hoover. This is a fabulous pair of Kan IIs, even if I do get a new speaker I won't be selling them

Tony.

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and will arrive with an open mind.
If you agree to have the same.

This weekend OK?

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Sounds good to me. How about Sunday? If you don't bring vinyl you will have to listen to mine!

Tony.

I was going to recommend the Contour 1.8s but I don't think a Nait will quite drive them. With my 250 they sound ALMOST as dynamic as SBLs (and better in other ways), as subtle in the mid as Spendors, and as open and coherent as any I've heard under £2K - including all the speakers on Vuk's list (only one of which I haven't heard).

If you demand a sideways move, Isobariks (DMS or Saras) are the answer for two reasons; one, you can get your money back when reselling and two, if you're going for more bass, why not get the speaker that sounds the most like Kans with the most bass? I have used a Nait 1 with Saras and DMS, and at quiet volumes there is no problem. In fact, the newer 'Briks are actually easier to drive than old Saras or Kans. And a third reason, both speakers can be got used for half the cost of new Katans.

Which brings me to my next point and actual recommendation; Update what you have! I am still amazed that members of this forum will spend $$$$ on boxes and phono carts before spending pennies(by comparison) on a simple update! There are three newer tweeters that Linn have made since the Kan2. All sound better than what you have. What is this fascination with Scanspeak or putting "Naim" tweeters in? I've yet to read a posting on this forum where someone did a direct comparison and preferred the old tweeters. Why do forum members like the Katans and Ninkas? Answer: the tweeter!!!! Improving the tweeter improves the bass. It allows better and more seamless integration. And in the case of the newest Linn "neodymiums", bass in Kans is increased substantially. The "neodymiums" are much smaller magnets and have no covers. By my figures, they allow a 13% increase in Kan cabinet volume with no loss in structural rigidity! VERY noticeable bass increase! The only problem with them is they protude slightly through the grille fabric(cosmetic) in Kan2s.
Improvement number two; while new tweeters are being installed(any version), have crossover removed and installed outside of cabinet ala newer DMS or Naims. A slight improvement to bass, but one none-the-less. It also allows you to dem active components in the future.
Thirdly; experiment with a better wall-mount shelf than the one you've already tried. Wall shelves get more bass. Also remember, a ferrous wall-mount has less metal than a floor-stander! You last demmed when you didn't understand ferrocity. And what about the Quadraspire Kan wall-mount? Anyone tried it? Hardly any metal at all. I'd be interested in anyone's opinion as my Kan wall-mounts are the only metal left near my system!

To recap: New tweeters installed at dealer; under $175. Outboarding crossover; under $75.(or less if done DIY). Wall-mount shelves(selling Kan stands)$200.

All changes are reversable if necessary and provide improvement to bass and overall sound, not a sideways step.

Ron The Mon

If you go the sub route, I would strongly recommend you listen to:

REL Strata (sealed fast unit)
Linn Sizmik (sealed fast unit - too expensive probably, which is a shame since it's an excellent sub)

(Still hoping you'll give up some FEPs and listen to AN K's...:)

Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.

Ron The Mon

Frank: I would certainly like to hear Snells, but would be surprised if I could find a pair locally to try out in the room. They don't crop up that often second hand, so a loot pair is unlikely. I have only previously heard them with valve amps, and predictably they sounded too valvy!

Tony.