New speakers for me...
Posted by: Tony L on 10 January 2002
My conclusion is that I definitely do need to get a bigger pair of speakers. Time to do some serious thinking… I have a feeling that a second hand pair of Credos, Elites, or reasonably sized Royds may be the answer.
I have heard Intros and Credos many times, and have heard both work well, so they represent safe ground. I suspect the Nait is up to driving them quite well (at 89db they have to be easier than Kans), I really don't want to force myself back onto the amp buying ladder, I am more than happy with the quality of the Nait, though intend to respect its quantity when choosing speakers.
I could then move the Kans into the second system (I ain't making the mistake of selling them again!) and then sell off the Point 5s. In my normal tight arsed fashion I probably won't want to buy new, so will be looking second hand…. (hmmm, anyone got a nice pair of AR 11s or 14s for sale?).
What else should I add to my list? I want a nice easy to drive and relatively full range speaker that is tight, musical, and works close to a back wall. I plan to do some thinking about this over the next few months - I am currently taking voluntary redundancy (yippee!), so won't be buying anything expensive immediately, but I am getting a good deal from the company, so assuming I find another job within the next few months I will come out nicely ahead financially… this is when I will buy some speakers!
Tony.
The "neodymium" is a different beast altogether from previous Linn tweeters. It doesn't have a standard solderable termination. You must use a heat-sink when soldering (with prior experience) or use a clip-on attachment soldered to the wire. The stock Kan wire will also not be long enough, so it needs replacement if refitting the crossover. The "neodymium" is a standard Linn physical retrofit. The 3 dome protecting fins only stretch the grille fabric, which is annoying if you want a totally stock look.
The cross-over is very easily removed for even a novice. You will need 4 Linn(or Naim) terminators for the back of the speaker as well as extra wire. Again the benefit, though there, is small. It will allow you to listen to Kans in the future actively which will make you NEVER sell your Kans!
Ron The Mon
Ron The Mon
FWIW, the Audio Notes sound worse than "Snells", which sound worse than Index!!!!
I've met Peter Snell on occasion and his design criteria were far different than those currently hawking his designs. There is a good reason why you'll never hear them demmed with Naim!
When the SBLs first came out, I remember thinking they looked like type "C"s run through a hot water wash!
quote:
To recap: New tweeters installed at dealer; under $175. Outboarding crossover; under $75.(or less if done DIY). Wall-mount shelves(selling Kan stands)$200.
To have the new tweeters in the Kans you need to be using active amplification and change the treble setting by a notch.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living
I too have been dealing with this problem with my own Kan1's. I have the early binding post version since new ( damn that's pushing 20 years !! ). I have looked into various replacements over the years ( usually when living where I'm trying to fill a large room ) but within my budget all were more of an expensive sideways step, or too much for the mighty Nait 1. The only contenders were Royd Doublets and Abbots. The doublets were the vinyl wrapped version, I thought they were a bit rough, I wish I had the chance to hear the veneer version; properly supported, they are supposed to be alot better. The abbots had the most potential but I found the Nait1 struggled some at anything above "moderate".
Now that I have the 32.5/160 I am going to go hunting again after school is finished.
I too have an interest in the Neat's - the mystique is the only one in my price range here in Canada. Others on the short list are used Royd's as above, maybe the RR1 and the Ninka. But as always, open to other suggestions.
As for the tweeter, I have looked into changing it as mentioned in previous posts. Originally Linn said it was not recomended in anything other than the Ninka and Katan, they have since amended their thoughts as outlined below....
( from Linn's website )
Can I fit the new Ninka & Katan soft-dome treble unit to my Keltik/Kaber/Keilidh/Tukan (etc) loudspeakers?
The Ninka & Katan treble units can be fitted to the above-mentioned speakers, however please take note of the following points before proceeding:
-- The crossover alignments for the Ninka and Katan were designed specifically to match the new treble unit with the cabinet, the bass unit and, in the case of the KATAN, the port. The crossover alignments for other Linn speakers were designed to match with the original drive units fitted to them.
-- Linn Products Ltd does not offer any opinion on the comparative performance of new and old treble units when fitted to the above mentioned speakers. While this is now an authorised procedure (previously it was an unauthorised procedure pending investigation of the full effects), Linn does not make any recommendations or otherwise as to whether or not the performance of the speaker will be improved as a result.
-- Fitting this treble unit to Linn loudspeakers other than Ninka and Katan will not invalidate the product warranty, as long as the procedure is carried out by an authorised Linn retailer.
-- The modification would be carried out entirely at the owners risk, accepting the conditions as listed above.
Andrew
As for level differences I have heard that the difference is the new tweeter needs to be brought up 1db. Don't know how accurate this is.... my question is would this be detrimentally noticable, assuming it is 1db out? I have been told that 3db is the minimum most people will notice, but I'm thinking more an ambiance thing - where something just isn't quite correct. But if the bass comes up a bit from more cabinet volume and the edge is gone from replaing the worn tweeters, this just may do the trick for me until school is done. Then the circus just may be back in town....
Having said that I too would not sell the Kan's, they are just too good given the proper room and equipment. Maybe hook them up to the Nait for a second system or gasp - TV duty...
Just my thoughts, but I'm following your ( Tony ) quest carefully, as it mirrors my own. I think I'm going to try the new tweeters. I called my local dealer and they quoted $125.00 cdn for the pair. For that price and a couple of hours of time, it could quite well be the best solution, as Ron the Mon has said. ( to me in the past as well..... I know I should listen more )
Again, just adding to the confusion....
michael
Bob.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living
quote:
I wish Tony could hear this & might give IBL's a go on a 'free hi-fi' trial. Just a thought.
Can a Nait do 'em? I certainly interested in a pair of IBLs, though have yet to see a pair advertised in mint condition, a phone call usually rules them out. I am really picky! If I could find a clean pair of Mk 2s I would seriously consider them assuming the Nait could cope.
Tony.
I had to wait quite a long time before I found a mint pair of mk II's, but it was well worth it. Expect to pay about £400.00. The ones advertised at £250 are invariably mk 1's in dodgy nick.
As for driving them with a NAIT, I honestly don't know.
Best wishes,
Bob.
quote:
I am going to have one more go at making you aware of the Super Elf. Its not a 'miniature'; a bit bigger than that, really solid and does have bass.
I would really like to hear a pair - I love the Shahinian looks, sort of 50s Eames furniture (I plan on getting a Eames chair at some point). I still question whether the Elf is the ideal Shahinian for my requirements though, the Starter and Compass are both more efficient and go deeper, and from memory are not much more expensive. Anyone know the prices of the Elf, Starter, and Compass? Plus I would possibly have to think about expensive stands with the Elf if the Kan II stand were not an ideal match (I suspect it would be a bit to high). I don't mind springing the 10 quid for the Ikea ones pictured though!.
A friend had a pair of Obelisks, but he ran them on a system with a Audio Research pre and Krell power - the bass never worked at all, too much, boomy, and little tune, but that’s those amps for you. I could still tell the Shahinians were something special. He was a total imaging freak, and really liked the way they did that kind of stuff. I am the opposite, and actually do most of my listening off axis, I loved them because they really filled the room and sounded good anywhere. Shahinians are theoretically my ideal speaker assuming they actually work in practice (i.e. play tunes in the bass as well).
All you Shahinian users are down south aren’t you - anyone got a pair up in the dark, dank, and grim north west of England?
Tony.
http://www.audio-excellence.co.uk/price.html
I was in my dealer in the grim, dark North last week and saw he is stocking Shahinians. just a step down the M62 at Image Audio, Headingley, Leeds
Bruce
PS I hope you are still having fun with that turntable!
I use MK1 Arcs and I live in Nottingham if you are in the area feel free to pop in, I have a NATI1 that I can hook up!!!.
pete MB&D
Even an early pair in so-so shape will likely fetch as much as you paid for them if they don't suit. And you very well know that you will apply the TLC (Tony Lonorgan Care) required to make them saleable for even more than you paid.
For the record, I love Kan's and I have heard at least one pair properly setup by one of the few over hear that knows how. All I can say is that IBLs offer all that and more.
It was actually Julian's love of these boxes that re-awakened my interest in them after not having heard a pair since they were an oddball new kid on the scene (and very much a prophetic design). That, and Ben Hicks' waxing lyrical about them on your very own site. IIRC Julian had four pairs between his office and home, and that man obviously had a good set of ears. Do you agree?
As far as driving them with a NAIT goes, I, like you, tend to listen at moderate levels and my rooms square footage (if not layout) is much like yours. I initially fully expected to have to upgrade to at least NAC?/Hi/160 to get them to sound 'right' but took into consideration that JV used CD3/NAT 02/NAIT 2/IBL Mk II in his garden room system (which he claimed got daily usage - Martin P. will likely chime in here with a quote or two from the old forum).
Note that you will not get thunderous bass, nor extension but, what you will get will sound so real that you will see the bass guitarist's fingers in action and know in an instant whether or not you want his axe for your collection. I do not exaggerate on this. I have lost sleep and productivity since these things have come on board, yet I still cannot get enough of them. Mine are Mk I, BTW, and I am almost afraid to have them upgraded.
Go ahead and get on it man, you know it makes sense to at least try them on for size. My bet is that you will (verbally) kick your own arse with a very large boot (on this very forum) for not giving them a go sooner.
You've nothing to lose and (possibly) much to gain.
Craig
rgds, dForum: Hi-fi Chat
Thread: Systems Analysis
Author: julian vereker
Subject: systems
URL: http://conference.realwebsite.com/Forums/Index.cfm?CFApp=16&Message_ID=10853
Sorry to take so long to post, but I've been away in France and the new local call service for Compuserve doesn't work - eventually I got a special phone number which is apparently a local call from anywhere in the world!
Anyway, my systems which I have listed in other places, so none of this is a revelation.
Music room: Phonosophie P3/Naim PST/ARO/FR1 mkll/Prefix, CDS, NAT 01, Chilton 100s tape recorder, Philips LaserDisc, Panasonic S-Vhs HI-FI vcr, Creative Labs DVD in AST P233 PC, & Sony Walkman Pro. Then 52, SuperCap, AV1 (nap140 & IBLs) SNAXO/supercap, NAP135 x 6 and Piano Black DBLs. Epson video projector. (13ftx27ftx7ft6")
Office (at home) Nat02 Nait 2 IBLs. Office (at Naim) CDS, NAT301, 52, naxo/hicap 2x 250(1974 vintage), IBLs
Garden room (home) cd3/nat03/nait3r/ibls.
TV room (home) Grundig monolith/Panasonic S-Vhs/satellite, 82/psc/hicap, naxo/hicap 2x250 SBLs.
Barn (home - for parties & BBQs) cds/mixer/naxo3spl/6x 135s/ Martin VRS800 (PA speakers)
Windex 92 (30ft Yacht) Sony car cd/radio with tape input for Walkman Pro & protoype ADS aluminium speakers.
Jaguar (car) Alpine standard fitment with Sony D-345 cd player.
Distributed around the place: about 1000 LPs, 2000 CDs, 65 (mostly unique) cassettes and
quote:
Why not start listening to some based on the recommendations so far?
Don't worry, I intend to, though I can't justify buying anything until I have found a new job (I'm dole scum as from Feb 1st). Here is where I am at:
It looks like I will get the opportunity to try some Neats at home sometime over the next few weeks. This is my starting point - I want to assess a pair of Mystiques and establish both whether a larger floorstander is the way forward, and if it is are these the ones. The Mystique will become my benchmark along with the Kans. If I decide at this point that floorstanders are not what I am after I will just buy a second hand sub.
At 800 quid the Mystique is the most expensive new speaker I can afford to consider. It is actually a lot more than I want to spend, but if it really blows my socks off I will do it. I can not think of any more speakers that interest me at that price, so this is probably it for new speakers.
Subs. As stated If the Mystiques don't work in the room at all (thus probably ruling out ported floorstanders) then a REL it is. I will just grab one out of Loot for a try, probably a Q200E, Strata, or Storm. Problem solved between 300-500 quid - this may prove to be the ideal option from all perspectives.
Other floorstanders:
I feel I know the Naim Credo fairly well I have heard both in many different rooms, so I'm not going to put any effort into hearing them at home (i.e. later having to pay top dollar for a pair). If I decide after hearing other options that they are a suitable answer I will buy from Loot and flog 'em later if I don't like them. I reckon I could get Credos to work well in this room. I consider Credos to be a safe bet, and very easy to dump if things don't work out.
Royds are easy enough to gamble with second hand - there is a pair of Abbots in Loot at the moment for under 300 quid. Were I at the point of buying I would probably just land 'em for a listen and flog 'em on later if they don't do it for me. I have heard Abbots and liked them, so the Nait and room are the only variables.
IBLs - if a good pair come up at the point I am looking to buy I will definitely land them for a listen.
Shahinians really appeal if they do what they promise, plus I love the looks, but after checking prices are way to expensive to consider new. It seems they have recently gone up radically. This presents a problem, as I am not prepared to do shop dems if I have absolutely no intention of buying a pair. This means taking a completely blind gamble on a second hand pair assuming I can find any of the smaller ones (Elves or Starters). I am not ruling this out as an option should some come up at a good price (i.e. I could get the same back on them).
So there is a lot of chance in my plan, the speaker I buy may well be chosen on a 'which comes up first' basis, but if I buy at the right price I don't mind doing it a few times to get it right.
Tony.
PS No way will I consider a passive sub!
Still, I counted 4 pairs (so my memory must be hanging in there despite all the abuse) two pairs of which were run with Naits. I do seem to recall an earlier post where his garden system was cd3/02/Nait2/IBL but I could be wrong. Of course those systems were possibly just for background music/news use.
Anyway, I haven't yet felt the need/desire to look at anything other than source upgrades for now. When we eventually move into a single family home I will likely see/hear things differently.
Have a nice weekend,
Craig
Have you heard the Linn "neodymium" tweeter in Kans or Kan2s or are you just parroting your Linn dealer? I have heard all five different tweeters in my Kans and none needed volume adjustment(I've also heard them installed in Kabers, Killdees, and Tucans).
When first hearing the "neodymiums" installed they do sound bright(as Katans do) but it is more a function of break-in. It takes a good week or two of listening for them to smooth out.
If your Linn dealer knows you're a mega poster on this forum, he would do good by discouraging you from knowing the truth; that Kan2s can out Kan the Katans.
Ron The Mon
P.S.
You can also reduce volume to Kan passive cross-overs by clipping(then soldering) resistors in parallel to existing components. It's very easy to do with outboarded cross-overs.
quote:
not big, not clever, mobile nicked.
You are big.
quote:
I'd be happy to come over on Sunday (is the Tate open on Sundays?) and will certainly bring some vinyl.Look forward to seeing you around 11ish?
Excellent, see you then. The Tate is open Sundays ( www.tate.org.uk ).
Tony.
You see here in the states Snell Ks, Es, and Js are sold used for 25-40% of original list--i.e. less than $500 bucks. I know the larger Snells (A and B) were reviewed as having boomy bass, but don't remember about the smaller ones.
BTW, as far as Snell vs. Naim resemblance, DBLs look like Snell A3s.
--Eric
quote:
No matter how well intentioned, most contributors to this thread do not have Kans, don't "get" Kans, or don't like them.
I'll admit to as much, as I don't own a pair or have ever heard them. My dealer's always comparing everything to his Kans and I love SBLs, though.
What made your crosshairs point to the Mystique rather than the more "Lonorgan-like" Critique? I've never heard it, but on paper it looks like a monitor version of the Mystique. Surely more bass than Kans yet less cabinet area than a Mystique. And cheaper to boot.
[This message was edited by Mike Sae on SATURDAY 19 January 2002 at 08:57.]
quote:
played it again at home last night and I've gotta get me one of those sucky contraptions.
Yeah, sucky contraptions are cool.
quote:
Many thanks for an enjoyable afternoon and for letting me bugger your house up.Hope you got some food for thought and enjoyed the afternoon yourself.
Dave proved beyond all reasonable doubt what I pretty much knew - that expensive hi-fi simply does not work properly unless you empty everything out of the room and leave acres of space between each component…
Things I learnt:
- That the top shelf of the QS Ref sounds radically better than any of the others - to say this pissed me off is a massive understatement! I still rate the QS Ref as the best sounding rack available, but when demming it make sure you listen to a component further down as well as one on the top shelf.
- That the Music Works mains block is quite microphonic - it sounds way better if it is stood on a dedicated stand.
- That the Nait and CDX don't like being as close to one another than I had them - giving some distance has really helped.
- That there is more than one way to build a QS Ref - Dave reorganised the rack putting the "runt shelf" back and moving the decoupling spikes down a level so the top two shelves are isolated (CDX and P9). Apparently it is possible to add another set of spikes to decouple the top shelf even further - I plan to do this, plus it will get the P9 further away from the CDX.
It is obvious there is a lot more mileage in the basic components in my system than I have so far been able to extract - listening to the CD player on the top shelf of the rack with the TV out of the room and the MW block on a separate little table was a revelation, all I have to work out is how to get it to do that in an environment that actually works as a living space (Dave has the luxury of a dedicated listening room).
I definitely have a better sound now as a result of rebuilding the QS in a different order, plonking the P9 PSU on the floor (further away from the Nait), and getting a bigger gap between the CDX and the Nait. I suspect the P9 will take another leap in performance if I increase the gap between it and the CDX by adding some additional spikes (I will post a picture of the rack later to make what I am trying to explain easier to visualise).
P9 vs. CDX
This was really interesting - and a large difference of opinion was to be had. We played three records that I have on both vinyl and CD and Dave preferred the CDX on two of them. Annie (Dave's wife) and myself went for the P9 every time without hesitation. So P9 = 7 votes, CDX = 2. The funny thing is that we both claimed to be using the same criteria in making the decision - musical communication. I just 'get' the music so much easier with the turntable than I do with the CD, Dave citing the same reasons for preferring the CDX. The P9 is definitely better from a round earth perspective, but this is not really what we were assessing. I don't think Dave actually likes vinyl, he often prefers his CDX to his high end LP12 (to say I don't is a massive understatement!). Further proof that everyone hears differently!
A entertaining afternoon was had by all.
Tony.
quote:
If your Linn dealer knows you're a mega poster on this forum, he would do good by discouraging you from knowing the truth; that Kan2s can out Kan the Katans.
The definitive answer will come when I transplant my Kan IIs to my flat (in another town) and try them head-to-head agains the Katans. That should happen the middle of February.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living
Andrew
Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living
quote:
Once we removed the P9 and placed the CDX on the reference shelf the CDX burried the P9.
Not to either my ears or Annie's. Sticking the CDX on the Ref shelf certainly narrowed the gap massively as one would expect. One thing I tried after Dave left was removing the CDX from the rack, I wish I had done that when everyone was still round… bloody hell, does that make a difference to the P9! (it's similar to what happened to the CDX but more so). Basically neither likes the other on the rack, as is. I reckon the CDX actually screws up the P9 more than vice versa (no big surprise considering there is a large transformer within a foot of a low output MC cartridge).
What I need to think carefully about is how to address this problem. I am not prepared to stick either the P9 or CDX on the wall, it is a partition wall and they are the two most expensive things I own - The majority of people I know with hi-fi on wall shelves have later had to pick the bits up off the floor, and they had brick walls! Even if it did stay up I am not convinced it is the ideal location for a major source component due to the vibration inherent in a hollow wall.
I need to find a way to get both sources working properly on one rack - surely this is what I spent 680 quid on a bloody rack to do!
quote:
As far as spacing between Naim boxes goes, it's not that critical but does help.
I rate it as being very critical indeed, the 100mm spacers I bought were obviously too short for the job, though with the spikes the distance is better. The CDX, Nait, and P9 PSU all stick a lot of electromagnetic gunk out around them, this is why I have to use the phono stage off the rack (just think how good that would sound on the rack!).
quote:
Putting the spikes below the CDX was just a fudge to give it the benefit of the spike decoupling. Adding a second set does make the top shelf very wobbly indeed but it works for me!
I plan to do this - it will get my cartridge further away from the CDX transformer, plus decouple the deck a little from the mechanical transformer vibrations which should hopefully get some way to the sound I get from vinyl with the CDX away from the rack. The CDX will hopefully also benefit as a result. I hope that doing this, plus adding the bog seat shelves (if they ever turn up) will go a long way towards optimising things.
Bottom line is unbelievably that you really need a separate table for each and every component in your hi-fi, you need those tables as far apart from one another as possible, and you need no other electrical components turned on in the town you live in, let alone in your house. You need no kitchen, no pans, no bicycle, water pipes, no metal window frames, no nails, no screws, no phones, no computer, no TV, no video, no clocks, no pens, no coins, no fillings in your teeth, no metal name tag on your cat, never invite anyone round with hip replacements, no door locks, no knives, no forks, no spoons, no hinges, etc. Any of these are a massive compromise… All hi-fi installations are stuffed, yes, EVERYONES. That means all of you lot!
Hi-fi winds me right up! Why doesn't it just bloody work?
Tony.
quote:
It does for most people.
Don't get me wrong, most people would be pretty stunned by how good my system sounds as is, it certainly kills many systems that it shouldn't - but now I have a taste for what is possible when set up is really taken to extremes… For instance if you have any box within about a foot of any other your system is not working as well as it could. simple as that.
The cumulative effect of removing the TV / video etc (I had removed it's speakers long ago), doing the stuff to the rack, only using one source component, mechanically isolating the mains block, moving all leads away from walls, paying attention to cable dressing etc is massive. Each one is small but very noticeable in isolation, but the effect of all together is huge. Without being big headed, most systems are not as well setup as mine was beforehand - it was interesting to establish just how far from perfect that was. I am convinced that the vast majority people buy new boxes before getting remotely close to the performance threshold of their old ones. It is simply stunning how much performance potential there is in something as "basic" as the little Nait I use.
quote:
Anyway a practical suggestion. If the CDX and P9 don't get on why not swap them as necessry? i.e. put the one you are listening to in the optimum place and remove the other entirely but keep it plugged to keep warm in somewhere else?
Certainly the way to optimal performance, as would removing the TV etc unless I was actually using it, but all this is way too much hassle for someone as inherently lazy as myself. I just want to push my system setup as far as I possibly can without loosing the functionality of the room or equipment.
It is not that the CDX and P9 don't get on, it is that the proximity of any box to any other can be clearly heard, the CDX to the Nait for instance. The design of my QS Ref favours the top component (as do most stands), so this raises other problems in the vast majority of systems that use multiple sources yet only one table. To get some perspective here, the P9 does not buzz, hum or anything like that due to the proximity of the CDX, I am discussing with something very different than fixing obvious faults.
Tony.
i agree that there are a lot of badly setup systems out there. you only have to read diametrically opposed views on some equipment on this forum.
unfortunately, i am probably one of them. my lp12 sits on the right hand side of my isoblue which supports the other sources and SNAXO. i cant move my lp12 elsewhere -- i play records too often.
then there is a QS Std on the left of the isoblue with power components, then there is a soundstyle CD rack, at which point we have arrive at the right speaker. (now who said a picture is worth a 1000 words -- will post one of these days...)
my desk is between the speakers and by the side of the left speaker, the is an equipment table and cupboard with laser printer, scanner and fax m/c. so, quite a few boxes here...
these are realities of not having a dedicated listening room, but then again, i am so used to listening to music while i work that i cant see myself moving my system elsewhere ...
tough cheese, i guess...
what sort of aspects improve as you "clean up" your listening room?
enjoy
ken