New speakers for me...

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what sort of aspects improve as you "clean up" your listening room?

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Really had to put into words without cop-out phrases such as "everything". It’s a kind of 'un-squashing'. With every adverse element that is removed from the equation the system gains more freedom across the board. This freedom is dynamic, more punch etc, but it is way more than that, almost a reduction in noise floor, though not in a simplistic hiss or noise way, it's real a increase in believability. As a result of this 'un-squashing' all the flat earth aspects, tune, groove etc all increase by equal proportion. The system just sounds more free, real, believable, and involving.

It is the degree of "more" that is hard to stomach. Using just the CD as source (so Dave can comment further if he chooses) the difference between my 'before' and the ultra tweaked and sadly impractical 'after' sounds like a really substantial system upgrade. If I heard this difference at a shop and was told it was adding a XPS or changing the Nait for a upmarket pre / power I would certainly believe it. It is definitely a difference of at least that magnitude.

I think the answer is to be aware of the possibilities and to implement as much as is possible without destroying the listening environment completely.

Try a few things to get a taste of what Dave and I are on about - unplug the computer / fax / printer from the mains (especially if you use a surge suppresser), move the metal Soundstyle CD stand away from the electronics, move the desk from between the speakers and listen. Obviously do all the stuff that you can that does not interfere with the rest of the room as well - check your cable dressing, keep the cables away from the back wall (move the rack out if necessary, mine is now about 8" from the rear wall), keep mains leads away from interconnects etc. The cumulative effect of these should be similar to what I witnessed. It is worth doing just to get a handle on what is possible in an more ideal environment. The trick I am yet to fully master is retaining the maximum benefit in a normal domestic setting. I intend to chip away at it bit by bit.

Tony.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

this is easily done without too much disruption, and yes, i have a surge protector on the strip that powers all computer stuff -- but this is on a different ring from my dedicated super duper spur, so me thought shouldnt make any difference? hmmm??

if i start moving things around in my office for the benefit of the hifi, my wife will leave me. i can only go that far and no more with all this messing about...

many thanks for the suggestions, tony.

enjoy

ken

ps: IBL's???

"I am convinced that the vast majority people buy new boxes before getting remotely close to the performance threshold of their old ones."

Yes - but as you noted above, the extra performance comes from going to *extremes* (your words not mine) that - even for someone as committed as yourself - may be too much (example: swapping the CDX and P9).

Also, you seem bothered that it "just can't work" without all the fuss. But the better kit (anything Naim, Rega, or Linn qualifies) is sensitive to everything. A reasonable course is to do the setup things that are not too much bother and then forget about it. A box upgrade in this context is totally reasonable and justified. Yes - the same upgrade could be had for less money by pulling our filling out, never watching TV again, and throwing the cat out of the house, but we are not willing to do this so it is not an option.

If this bothers you, then do what I did and downgrade to a Sony ES. Works well and isn't nearly as picky about mains, supports etc. (although supports make a significant difference).

I've got a total non-mullet system playing as I write this:

LP12->Sony ES->$149 Polk speakers.

Source first does work - this l'il system is very enjoyable and does not fatigue. We listen to it for hours at a time. Just finished Romeo & Juliet. And we have all kinds of gook hooked up to it - VCR, DVD player, and cable (with a Radio Shack ground loop isolator thingie).

Now, I've no doubt that your system kills mine. But you are not content with it (!). From the tone of your posts, I sense Audio Nervosa sinking in. C’mon - P9/Nait/Kans rocks!!!

Enjoy the tunes...

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

Getting sub-optimum sounds and visitations from the local tea-leaf more than warrant an upgrade in your accomodation plans. Here's hoping your new job will help matters.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
The frightening thing is not dying
The frightening thing is not living

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...not to put too fine a point on it, but you may be losing the plot.

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Loosing? As in current tense? Ah well, that’s ok then.

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A reasonable course is to do the setup things that are not too much bother and then forget about it.

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This is what I will do, I just found the mad ramblings of an audio extremist like Mr Cattlin worthy of a write up. He is both barking mad and possibly right. The latter is the scary bit.

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I've got a total non-mullet system playing as I write this:
LP12->Sony ES->$149 Polk speakers.

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The Response 2s been pronounced dead then?

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C’mon - P9/Nait/Kans rocks!!!

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It most certainly does.

Tony.

Alex

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That the Music Works mains block is quite microphonic - it sounds way better if it is stood on a dedicated stand.

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Now this is really pushing at the boundaries of nuttiness.

A microphone isn't microphonic enough to cause a problem up the mains input of even the most incompetent equipment.... And it would be so easy to prove.

I'm also deeply suspicous of putting turntables onto wobbly racks.

Paul

The reason why I've not recommended them earlier is that I've not heard Kans and therefore do not know whether IBLs will give you greater bass extension. Also I've heard IBL's with a Nait 3 and was not impressed. They do sound very good with a 180.

I own both Kans (late mk1's with new tweeters) & IBL's & IMHO the IBL's leave the Kans standing. To my ears the Kans sound shut in by comparison. The IBL's do have deeper & better controlled bass.

I've not tried IBL's with anything less than a 250 though. I use them normally active with a pair of 250's...mmmmm.....nice....

Bo

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Now this is really pushing at the boundaries of nuttiness.
A microphone isn't microphonic enough to cause a problem up the mains input of even the most incompetent equipment.... And it would be so easy to prove.

I'm also deeply suspicous of putting turntables onto wobbly racks.

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Mains block being microphonic: I can only comment on the MW Megablock I use, and It is clear for the hearing - I'm not saying it’s a massive problem, but its one of those things that adds up with other things to eventually make a bloody big thing.

As for the turntable, I was equally suspicious, but honestly it is not a problem. The QS Ref is quite near a large (and bloody heavy) record rack, so the floor is very solidly held down. Records have not ever jumped as a result of foot fall even with some very serious deliberate provocation. When I dem'd the QS Ref I used a P25 Larry had lying about to audition the QS against my old Mana Reference, I definitely preferred the QS. Vinyl is my main source, and will continue to be - I have a more than 2-1 vinyl to CD ratio, and am a bit of a geeky record collector so things will stay that way! The deck had to work otherwise I would not have bought the stand. Simple as that.

Hockman:

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I'm one of the biggest fan of these speakers on this board. They are intensely musical; the DBLs sound like IBLs with extra bass and scale thrown in.

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I'm getting the chance to hear a pair at home sometime within the next couple of weeks!

Dave C:

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And its not ultra tweeky, I do it because I enjoy music and have been exposed (every Thursday night) to just how bloody wonderful a Naim system can sound and everything else sounds flat and lifeless.

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The case against Mr Cattlin for crimes of ultra-tweaking.

The accused has a dedicated listening room in which he has:

• Removed all the steel screws from his floorboards and replaced them with brass.
  
• Removed the radiator because that's made out of metal.
  
• Moved his LP12 to the other side of the room because that’s made out of metal too (he uses a long interconnect between the Prefix Hicap and the preamp).
  
• Been amongst the very first to home test every stage of the development of what became the QS Ref table.
  
• Equally involved in beta testing the MW blocks and leads.
  
• Invented the bog seat mod to the QS shelves.
  
• Discovered that the MW block works better on its own rack, and cut a QS shelf in half and added QS Reference spikes to it to create the ideal rack for this purpose.
  
• Run his Nac A5 under the floor so it loops down in the cellar to keep it away from walls.

The case for the prosecution rests, though I strongly suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg…

The sad thing is that it all bloody works.

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Maybe the best advice I can give is to find a decent dealer and stay well away from him.

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Excellent advice.

Tony.

I read it again and felt it a tad strong...but you took it as I meant it

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The Response 2s been pronounced dead then?

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Pending a few phone calls to follow up, yes.

I had a message from my dealer waiting for me when I got home yesterday. Basic story is my speakers are *too old* to be fixed. They were pronounced DOA. But I need to follow up to find out specifics, if there are any.

Don't think I will stick with the Polk's as a final speaker, but we do enjoy tyhe system set up this way - movies, CDs, and records. And the benefits of the LP12 over the other sources are clearly there - it "wears the pants" even through so-so amp and pocket change speakers.

Maybe Katans for me. At least Linn (and Naim, of course) can service their speakers seamingly no matter how old.

- Greg

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

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Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
One thing I tried after Dave left was removing the CDX from the rack, I wish I had done that when everyone was still round… bloody hell, does that make a difference to the P9! (it's similar to what happened to the CDX but more so). Basically neither likes the other on the rack, as is. I reckon the CDX actually screws up the P9 more than vice versa (no big surprise considering there is a large transformer within a foot of a low output MC cartridge).

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Tony,

OK, now I'm getting bloody suspicious.

The P9 is famously non-ferrous, so it shouldn't really have any effect according to known science.

I am completely prepared to ignore known science, but you have to eliminate it first. This was Peter Belt's problem. He picked up on lots of things that could "never" happen (LP12 next to CD player made it sound worse), but then he ascribed it to bollocks pseudo-science to try to make money from it.

Can you please confirm that you moved the CDX, but left it plugged into both the mains & the NAIT?

If you unplugged it for the test, try something different. Leave everything in place, but unplug everything from the NAIT except the P9. Do the same with just the CDX connected.

This is to eliminate earth loops as the cause of your problem (I find it gives me a thin-and-nasty sound).

Also...

Move the CDX away off the rack again, but leave it plugged into mains & NAIT. Do you lose most of the benefit you noticed?

cheers, Martin

P.S. I presume you have disconnected the internal earth strap in the NAIT which gives you an automatic earth loop when connecting either a Naim CD player or a turntable????

[This message was edited by Martin Payne on TUESDAY 22 January 2002 at 22:23.]

The P9 is a two-piece affair, so it might help if Tony clarified what he means by "P9 on the rack" (unless he did and I missed it 5 pages ago - whoa! Whatta thread!!!).

And it may not be a ferrous effect - it could be the effect of the extra mass on the stand.

And about those ProAcs...

Just got off the phone with the ProAc distributor (again) and it turns out confusion abounds. The store I was referred to by the distributor referred me to another store that does not even deal in ProAc!

At any rate, the woofers are no longer made but the Response 2S woofer is - and it has a 3" magnet instead of a 1" (or so) magenet and is supposed to be mucho better. The crossovers are no longer made but ProAc could whip me up a custom pair.

The distributor says the most likely thing is that my speakers have the *wrong driver* - a 14 ohm bass unit instead of the 8 ohm that should be in there. But I need to get my speakers back, take 'em apart, and have a looksee.

Whata mess...

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

[This message was edited by Greg Beatty on TUESDAY 22 January 2002 at 22:48.]

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With all this talk of setup it does seem rather odd the equipment costing thousands of pounds hasn't been optimised for use in the real world.

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There are two explanations. All the twiddling has a more psychological effect than real effect. Or bizarre things really do happen in the proximity of an expensive stereo.

I believe it's mostly the former. But you do need to carefully install loudspeakers, ensure that transformers don't interfere with small signals and worry about what you place your turntable on. The trouble is it's impossible to draw a line between the real and the imaginary.

Paul

If this is the case, I'll scratch off ProAcs from my sub-conscious "nice speaker" list...

Sorry if I've skipped an important note or two of the argument - I confess to having read only the first and tenth pages.

I set up part of my system the other night - CDX, 72+HiCap, 250, and ES11's. I lasted around 1.5 hrs and could not resist the temptation, had to hook up the XPS. It really makes sense of the CDX.

IBL's should be worthy of consideration - although I suspect they will require more than a Nait 2 to grip them (IBL's eat the 90 for breakfast).

Tony - credos have ports.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

--Eric

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I am completely prepared to ignore known science, but you have to eliminate it first. This was Peter Belt's problem. He picked up on lots of things that could "never" happen (LP12 next to CD player made it sound worse), but then he ascribed it to bollocks pseudo-science to try to make money from it.

Can you please confirm that you moved the CDX, but left it plugged into both the mains & the NAIT?

If you unplugged it for the test, try something different. Leave everything in place, but unplug everything from the NAIT except the P9. Do the same with just the CDX connected.

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I know what you are getting at, though the unplugging effect is no greater than normal in a Naim system. Every Naim system I have heard performs better with only one source plugged into the preamp.

My theory as to why things are the way they are is:

CDX affecting the P9 - Pretty bleedin' obvious! There is a large mains transformer plus all kinds of digital nasties in fairly close proximity of a low output moving coil cartridge. I would be astounded if there were no effect. Additionally it is mentioned on another thread that the CDX dumps some noise and other nasties into the mains, this will no doubt take its toll on both my phono stage and the Nait. The turntable definitely sounds better by turning off the CDX.

P9 affecting the CDX - Two plausible reasons: The P9 PSU having a transformer which will obviously pollute the electromagnetic environment a bit - dropping the PSU down to the floor, thus giving a bigger gap between it and the Nait has improved matters for all sources. Secondly the P9 itself prevents the CDX from taking the better sounding top shelf of the QS Ref, and even after moving the spikes down a level the additional mass of the P9 will do no favours to the way the stand works. This should be seen as a QS thing rather than a P9 thing.

Paul:

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There are two explanations. All the twiddling has a more psychological effect than real effect. Or bizarre things really do happen in the proximity of an expensive stereo.

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Only one way to work it out - Go and do it!

Erik:

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I don't think most turntables other than Linn and Rega (?--only the P9?) are grounded. Most just connect to the cartridge, which of course has no ground. In fact most turntables use the preamp as the ground (via the ground wire), don't they?

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I use a outboard phono stage. I have not got any earth connection between the phono stage and the Nait (unless it does it through the interconnect). There are no symptoms of there being a earth issue (hum / buzz / static / etc). The P9 sounds excellent.

Dave C:

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And yes, there is more (top secret tweeks)!

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Go on, tell us! We'll keep them secret, honest.

Tony.

PS Rico, great to see you back - where have you been?

Where have I been? Lets not talk about Dell and their laptops, eh? Aside from hardware failure, have spent most of my time posing as a tradesman complete with chippie's apron (although without the bricklayer's bum-cleavege - refer to Max Headroom for further detail)... now again seeking gainful employ as resident IT scum.

Back up and running on my desktop PC, now repatriated in our house, and living in "our box hell". Simultaneously attempting to de-box, effect maintenance, install dedicated spur, redecorate, and set up system. Will keep ya'll posted.

Currently listening to CDX+XPS/72+hi/250/ES11's... man, that New Moon Daughter by Cassandra Wilson is sounding good. Rediscovering years of CD's as they tunble from the boxes.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

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Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:

I know what you are getting at, though the unplugging effect is no greater than normal in a Naim system. Every Naim system I have heard performs better with only one source plugged into the preamp.

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What we're trying to achive here is the removal of earth loops.

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Erik:Quote: " I don't think most turntables other than Linn and Rega (?--only the P9?) are grounded. Most just connect to the cartridge, which of course has no ground. In fact most turntables use the preamp as the ground (via the ground wire), don't they?"

I use a outboard phono stage. I have not got any earth connection between the phono stage and the Nait (unless it does it through the interconnect). There are no symptoms of there being a earth issue (hum / buzz / static / etc). The P9 sounds excellent.

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"Unless it does it through the interconnect". Well the CDX does, so why not the P9? I believe that the RB300 (and by implication, probably the RB900) ground through one of the -ve wires (for left channel) rather than through a separate earth wire.

It's easy enough to tell - unplug P9 from mains & preamp. Use a multimeter to see if there is continuity from mains plug earth pin through to the outer collar of either of the phono sockets. If there is, having both P9 & CDX connected will give you an earth loop.

I have a wire removed internally within my LP12 so that the arm base is not connected to mains earth. My system is only earthed through the CDS.

In addition, there is a wiring issue with the NAITs, in that they connect mains earth to system earth, which also gives an earth loop if either source is earthed.

Resolving both of these should reduce thinness of the system considerably.

cheers, Martin

[Edited to change arm names - P300->RB300]

[This message was edited by Martin Payne on WEDNESDAY 23 January 2002 at 23:21.]

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... acknowldege that it is possible to get a system sounding playing well musically that sounds like a bag of spanners tonally - even paying attention to what has gone before

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Would you mind expanding this ?

Thanks

Peter

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I have a wire removed internally within my LP12 so that the arm base is not connected to mains earth. My system is only earthed through the CDS.

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There is no electrical connection at all between the RB900 and the rest of the P9 or its PSU. The P9 is radically different to the LP12 and most other decks in this respect (the LP12 subchassis is earthed).

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In addition, there is a wiring issue with the NAITs, in that they connect mains earth to system earth, which also gives an earth loop if either source is earthed.

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The Nait and CDX are both earthed. The P9 PSU is earthed, but that is minding its own business and not touching anything else electrically (see above). I am pretty sure the Tom Evans is not earthed, I seem to recall that the lead from its little PSU to the mains plug looks like twin core, I will check later.

So, do I leave both the CDX and Nait earthed? They give no indication at all of not being happy in this respect as they are.

Another issue I know I have, is that there is an earth differential or something between the TV gear and the Nait (I do not recall this when I had the 32.5 / Hicap / 250 etc). This issue stems from the aerial & satellite feed, unhooking these removes a low level buzz on that input. The buzz is still there if I turn the TV etc off and remove the mains plugs but leave the satellite lead coax connected to the Sky digibox. The digibox is not directly connected to the Nait, it goes via SCART to the TV - it is the TV outs I use for everything (not that there is any difference with the buzz which I connect to the amp). If I am listening critically to records or TV I simply remove the interconnect from the TV to the amp, this improves the sound a small but worthwhile amount.

I am very interested in a solution to this issue - I don't care about the terrestrial aerial, I'm happy to ditch that completely, but I would like to isolate the satellite coax earth somehow (remember I have zero electronics knowledge).

Tony.

Keep it up! I've missed the discussions here for a few weeks (whilst my internet access was lost) but now the cable modem is here and I intend to catch up!

Slainte!

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

In my case, it certainly works better for my speakers than for my components - QS Ref is superior for that purpose. However, together, with Mana under the Neats and QS Ref under the components there is a synergy which goes to show that it doesn't have to be all or nothing with either brand.

So, live and let live, I say...

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

How did it go setting it up?

Does it sound even better with careful installation than before, when you did the home dem?

I am still waiting for my bog seats...

Let us know when you get your new wires - like I need to ask you to...

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.