New speakers for me...

Yup - Nait + CDX = ground loop. I think the usual remedy is to open up one of these (try the Nait) and unhook a ground wire. I don't have specifics but a forum search should do it.

Mike -

I bought the speakers 2nd-hand so no telling what they went through. The distributor suspects that the drivers may have been replaced with incompatible ones (14 ohm in place of 8 ohm) by my former less-than-scrupulous dealer. At this point, we still do not know what, exactly, is up with my ProAcs. The dealers 'round here are dreadful so this process is taking longer than it should. Once I retrieve my speakers from the dealer, I will be dealing directly with the distributor to try to diagnose the problem. I wouldn't scratch ProAc off just yet (I almost did until I called the distributor direct).

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

quote:

---

Additionally it is mentioned on another thread that the CDX dumps some noise and other nasties into the mains

---

Yikes!!!

Is it true?

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

My reading of Vuk's posts is that he does believe ferrous metal have a negative effect but that he doesn't believe it to be particularly important. Specifically that he has extensive direct personal experience of minor gains from removing ferrous metals and huge gains from adding ferrous metal (in the form of Mana stands).

"if you accept that [snip] ferrous metals [snip] degrades sound quality [snip] how can a stand that is made of angle iron [snip] be the best"

You keep raising this point and as pointed out many times before you are making a simple logical error. It is entirely possible to beleive that ferrous metal is bad and think Mana is the best stand.

Constant repetition of this sort of thing gives people the impression you are obsessed with ferrous metals in a semi-religious almost cultish way. This may well be a significant factor in the apparent difficulty many people have in taking your views seriously.

Matthew

Thing is, I think the difference in sound (and compatibility) between Mana and QS Reference is down to the nature of the materials that the shelves are made of and how they interact with the kit and the floor, rather than what the supporting columns or 'frame' is constructed from. Bear in mind that glass is non-ferrous, as is wood or mdf. The difference in sound must surely lie mainly at the door of the resonances inherent in the materials than any 'ferrous' influence per se?

More importantly, I will drag out and dust down my old 'the earth is mainly ferrous anyway, so what difference will a few bits of iron make' argument...

I'm not trying to defend Mana or the use of ferrous materials as such, of course, but I suspect that the influence is far less than one would think. To me, QS Reference is the better support system (having tried both it and Mana together), but that's due to its design rather than the absence of ferrous materials.

In any case, DNM, who make my plastic preamp, argue that it's not just about ferrous materials anyway - even aluminium is a culprit. Why escapes me, but seeing as those guys lead the non-ferrous hermeneutic paradigm, I am inclined to cut them some slack on this.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

Tony.

PS Love the [snip] thing, will use that all the time when replying from now on.

TC '..'
"Girl, you thought he was a man, but he was a Muffin..."

DO NOT HIJACK THE THREAD.

- GregB

Insert Witty Signature Line Here

As I said, you need to consider changing flats. New loudspeakers may help, but if your room is killing the sound, then even a CDS2/52/500/NBLs will not alleviate the problem.

At some point in time you're going to have to borrow a pair of loudspeakers or two. Something like a pair of Katans (set close to the wall) and a floorstander.... something to liven the air up a bit more. Tell your dealer that this is a starting point, they may also have some good advice particularly if they know your premises.

Other than that, ever thought of Feng Shui? Or PWB?

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

Glad to hear that you will have an opportunity to give the IBLs a try. They really do sound bloody marvelous on the end of a 2 if you don't ask too much of them. Kans with more 'welly' would be a good description.

Hope they work for you,

Craig
Kan lover, IBL worshipper

quote:

---

As I said, you need to consider changing flats. New loudspeakers may help, but if your room is killing the sound, then even a CDS2/52/500/NBLs will not alleviate the problem.

---

Oi! I've actually bought this flat! (well the RBS have).

Its a really good sounding room, one of the cleanest I have had so far. I think the main issue with the Kans is the rooms I have always had great success with them have had a rear wall fairly close behind the listening seat, in other words they got a little low end reinforcement from the back wall. The listening chair in this room is by necessity in free space at pretty much the mid point of the acoustic space, so it is in a position of minimal reinforcement (though is nicely free of coloration as a result).

My perspective on the whole thing is that I can certainly live with things the way they are - the mid and top is excellent, with brass instruments, guitars, percussion working in a way I have not managed to achieve before. The trade off is a little warmth in the bass, I would like just a little more slam and kick to the bottom end, though obviously not at the expense of tunefulness or grip.

This thread has proved really interesting, and opened the door to a few better setup techniques that have 'grown' the Kans a bit more in size. I have got the opportunity of hearing some very decent speakers at my home next week (Neat / IBL) to help me decide if this route is a logical way forward or not.

Basically I am delighted with the systems performance, it really plays music, though if I can just get a tiny bit more warmth, weight, and tonal evenness without breaking either what's good about it or the bank I will certainly consider it.

Tony.

quote:

---

I just find it hard to believe that any hi-fi enthusiast would gladly accept the existance of any component, stand or other wise, that is made from metals which have been proven to cause sound degradation and use in their hi-fi system.

Regardless of this degradation being some how magically balanced out by the qualities of Mana.

---

You really are thick! Re-read this snippet from Matthew's post:

quote:

---

My reading of Vuk's posts is that he does believe ferrous metal have a negative effect but that he doesn't believe it to be particularly important. Specifically that he has extensive direct personal experience of minor gains from removing ferrous metals and huge gains from adding ferrous metal (in the form of Mana stands).

---

This pretty much somes up my own experience. Prior to getting Mana, my own supports were non-ferrous. I tried Mick's trick of setting a solid cast-iron frying pan on top of various components, with little or no discernable effect. In stark contrast, adding the Mana produced a huge improvement! Therefore, I, whose opinion is equally valid to your own, think that your crusade is rather overblown.

BTW, they say that a broken record deteriorates the sound of your system. What are you going to do about that, Stallion?

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

quote:

---

I think the main issue with the Kans is the rooms I have always had great success with them have had a rear wall fairly close behind the listening seat, in other words they got a little low end reinforcement from the back wall.

---

Same as my conclusion earlier in the thread.

Thinking about it again, Katans (although they produce significantly more bass than Kans) may not be enough.

Let me suggest you try Credos or Ninkas with their heavy bases. Whatever you do, don't ignore the Ninkas. Audio Notes or Living Voice Auditorium are also a good bet. IBL's, maybe-ish - although they could be a little small.

We're all waiting...

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

Buy a cheap pair 2nd-hand for the cabinets and replace the Lowther drivers. Peesy. I heard a pair in Japan and was astounded by unstereotypical they were. Very little nasel colouration and very musical.

Andrew

Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"

Most of the speakers being suggested are (IMO) out of step with the Nait, you'll get sound but the result won't be balanced. I think the whole 'change the speakers' approach will founder on this.

The LK280 is roughly equivalent to a NAP250, but they're very unfashionable and very cheap (except on EBay). LK1s are free.

There, that was simple!

Paul

Definitely worth a spot of exploration, Tony.

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

I mean this in all sincerity, and I certainly don't doubt that it was correct in the particular situation when you reached that conclusion.

Being a post old-forum member, I would like to know more.

It's always a nice day for it Have a good one!
Steve.

quote:

---

In other words, Mana works wonders at improving the sound of a hi-fi system through the excellence of its design. However, it could work EVEN BETTER if it was made from something else other than ferrous metal and, subsequently, not be hampered by this limiting factor?

What if the design was identical, but made of alluminium instead?

---

I hope you're not naive enough to believe that Mana hasn't tried alternative materials. I'm sure you realize that aluminum doesn't resonate in the same manner as iron, which means that it would handle/control vibrations very differently. Blindly assuming that you can just substitute an alternate material into a sophisticated support solution is gross misstep in logic.

quote:

---

there is a heck of a lot more to the ferrous effects issue than firing a Le Crusset pan into the room

---

Your argument is that ferrous materials in proximity to our systems undermine the performance. Well, an iron pan is about as ferrous as it comes. Am I missing something, or are you just being argumentative?

quote:

---

Incidently, it never ceases to amaze (and amuse) me how worked up "the mana boys" get whenever this subject is mentioned.

---

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm not one of "the mana boys". I happen to use their stands, and I appreciate the significant improvements that they bring to my system.

quote:

---

"BTW, they say that a broken record deteriorates the sound of your system. What are you going to do about that, Stallion?"

Mike, is this supposed to be some form of insult?

---

Nope. It's an observation of your errant behavior, and a suggestion that you try to improve. I don't expect you to change, though. There have been many people trying to tell you this, but you continue to ignore them all. Oh well...

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

I have just read this really long thread, and now I really want to know how Tony gets on with the ibls. I tell you its better than any soap opera.

BTW there was some talk about sub speakers. I presume that in order to feed the sub you would need minimum a flat cap to get another output, or is it being suggested to double out of a speaker output, or heaven forbid daisy off of one of the speakers?

Nobody should go away.

Now lets not go jumping on to the pack animal bandwagon.

This really isn't like you!

Take care,
Steve.

quote:

---

My mum always taught me to ignore rude people, perhaps if we all do it he might go away.

---

Yes, and I've often preached that in the past. However, every once in a while "Stallion" gets too smug me to stand it, and I have to say something. Just because Tony shares a few of the same opinions, doesn't mean that Stallion's petty prancing has been justified or validated.

We're talking stereos, where it's all opinion and personal preferance, and everyone's always "right". Stallion just hasn't recognized that yet. He's still trying to win a war that can't be won.

-=> Mike Hanson <=-

cheers

Nigel

quote:

---

Being a post old-forum member, I would like to know more.

---

Hmmm. interesting. And there I was thinking you were a country member. Ah well, one surprise per day is enough to keep life interesting...

Rico - SM/Mullet Audio

quote:

---

Originally posted by Eric Barry:
I don't think most turntables other than Linn and Rega (?--only the P9?) are grounded. Most just connect to the cartridge, which of course has no ground. In fact most turntables use the preamp as the ground (via the ground wire), don't they?

--Eric

---

OK, I'll take your word for it.

I only really know about LP12 & RB300 in this context, and I've extrapolated to RB900.

cheers, Martin

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tony Lonorgan:
The Nait and CDX are both earthed. The P9 PSU is earthed, but that is minding its own business and not touching anything else electrically (see above). I am pretty sure the Tom Evans is not earthed, I seem to recall that the lead from its little PSU to the mains plug looks like twin core, I will check later.

---

Tony,

OK, sounds like the P9 is fine, then.

quote:

---

So, do I leave both the CDX and Nait earthed? They give no indication at all of not being happy in this respect as they are.

---

As a short term measure you might like to try disconnecting the earth in the NAIT's mains plug. Be very careful that it does not touch the live pin whilst doing your tests!!!!!!

If this is an improvement, put the mains earth back in place, and remove an internal wire which connects mains earth to NAIT's motherboard.

One word of warning here, the connections inside your mains plugs can become quite loose over time. Tiny movements of the mains cable can improve or worsen the performance. If you intend to try this, open up the plug, tighten everything up (not too tight), have a quick listen, then disconnect the earth & listen again.

It's worth checking for looseness as part of an occiasional (??yearly??) maintenance regime.

cheers, Martin

Alex