New speakers for me...
Posted by: Tony L on 10 January 2002
I did a little experiment last night, I brought the Heybrook Point 5s from my second system through and tried them in the main system. The results were mixed, the Point 5s are obviously not as good a speaker as a Kan (though they are an incredibly good speaker for their price), but they are more tonally even and shift a bit more air. The system sounded more evenly balanced and fuller, but had lost a lot of the musical ability and clarity it has with the Kans. It was painfully obvious how much better the Kan tweeter is, the Point 5s sound a bit muffled and shut-in in the top. It was equally obvious that the Kans are simply too small to drive my listening room. My room is quite big as it opens out to the kitchen, the whole space is about 19' x 13' with a high ceiling. The speakers are on the shorter wall and fire down the room.
My conclusion is that I definitely do need to get a bigger pair of speakers. Time to do some serious thinking… I have a feeling that a second hand pair of Credos, Elites, or reasonably sized Royds may be the answer.
I have heard Intros and Credos many times, and have heard both work well, so they represent safe ground. I suspect the Nait is up to driving them quite well (at 89db they have to be easier than Kans), I really don't want to force myself back onto the amp buying ladder, I am more than happy with the quality of the Nait, though intend to respect its quantity when choosing speakers.
I could then move the Kans into the second system (I ain't making the mistake of selling them again!) and then sell off the Point 5s. In my normal tight arsed fashion I probably won't want to buy new, so will be looking second hand…. (hmmm, anyone got a nice pair of AR 11s or 14s for sale?).
What else should I add to my list? I want a nice easy to drive and relatively full range speaker that is tight, musical, and works close to a back wall. I plan to do some thinking about this over the next few months - I am currently taking voluntary redundancy (yippee!), so won't be buying anything expensive immediately, but I am getting a good deal from the company, so assuming I find another job within the next few months I will come out nicely ahead financially… this is when I will buy some speakers!
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Andrew Randle
Paul,
That's good advice for Tony on the LK1/LK280. I've heard them drive Kans before and they seem to match them perfectly. They're also likely to improve on the bass output. Extremely cheaply priced too.
If that doesn't work with the Kans, then moving up to Kabers or Ninkas will help.
So Tony.... what are you doing this weekend? No, I don't swing on the other side of the tree, just enquiring on whether you've made any steps to remedy your situation - e.g. demos, particularly home demos.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Tony L
Martin:
quote:
As a short term measure you might like to try disconnecting the earth in the NAIT's mains plug. Be very careful that it does not touch the live pin whilst doing your tests!!!!!! If this is an improvement, put the mains earth back in place, and remove an internal wire which connects mains earth to NAIT's motherboard.
Will give it a go. One question first: Will this make be a problem listening to the P9 with the CDX turned off? Surly this means that I would not have a system earth.
What about my TV? Any ideas?
Andrew R:
quote:
So Tony.... what are you doing this weekend? No, I don't swing on the other side of the tree, just enquiring on whether you've made any steps to remedy your situation - e.g. demos, particularly home demos.
Nowt this weekend, though I am listening to some some speakers Tuesday evening (Neat / IBL) at home. I moving slowly as I can not justify buying anything until I know when I will find / start a new job - I'm getting a fairly reasonable redundancy pay out, but I don't know how long I have to make it last.
All this talk of Linn amps is scaring me. Do I really have to listen to one? I have still never heard a system with a Linn amp that I have liked, though in all fairness I have not heard many. I have to admit that if I felt I needed more watts but cheaper than Naim I would look at second hand Exposure or Densen first.
I still don't think I need more watts, but will obviously know more after Tuesday.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Andrew Randle
quote:
I moving slowly as I can not justify buying anything until I know when I will find / start a new job
Sure, take your time, a couple of months is fine. BTW we're all rooting for you and you're new job.
quote:
All this talk of Linn amps is scaring me. Do I really have to listen to one? I have still never heard a system with a Linn amp that I have liked, though in all fairness I have not heard many.
Well, I've just got a Kolektor and LK140 at the moment and it sounds miles better than most of the Linn systems demoed at shows (including the so-called "antiklimax", which did sound shite in those particular setups). Very similar sounding to the LK1/LK240. Plenty of power, body, communication, bass, speed, bounce and intermusician timing.
Oh dear... I'll get back into the Linn Binn now.
Good luck with the Neats and IBLs, they should be a step forward for your room, though don't forget the others mentioned.
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Tony L
quote:
This is pretty much the effect you'll get if you borrow some Mana and put it next to your equipment. Tonal evenness, warmth, compression, easy and nice. Shame about the music, but hey, it'll sound nice (nice - tm Ed Needham)
Huh? Don't get this one at all, not even slightly. Mr Cattlin, please pick up your marbles.
Sticking metal next to stuff does not affect the tonal balance to my ears, it is something else entirely. It would certainly not do what I am looking for, I know, I removed the metal stuff and placed it far away from my system (in Canada!). Remember?
This is IMHO purely a tiny 5" bass driver vs. quite large room thing. People are reading way too much into things I say around here. The whole bass thing is not that much of an issue, I can happily live with this system the way it is right now. I am sure there are people out there reading this who think I have no bass at all, this is simply not the case. I am however willing to try some nice larger speakers to see if they add what I want, without breaking what I have got. This is easy to try, I just need to be in next Tuesday!
If bigger speakers are not the solution, then I will do absolutely nothing to the hi-fi and just buy some more records, in fact I would be doing that anyway. I fancy buying some Thelonious Monk records, now where can I find some? Please note that I said records… I want all of the early 60s Columbia ones, and so far I have none.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Andrew Randle
If that is the case, wait until you're in a position to buy better amps or an XPS. Both of which will improve on the already acceptable amount of bass in your system (among other musical aspects).
Andrew
Andrew Randle
Currently in the "Linn Binn"
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Mike Hanson
quote:
If that is the case, wait until you're in a position to buy better amps or an XPS. Both of which will improve on the already acceptable amount of bass in your system (among other musical aspects).
I'll second that, specifically the XPS. Source First and all that!!! 
-=> Mike Hanson <=-
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Steve Toy
A great lump of iron with your hi-fi on it doesn't seem to kill the boogie - quite the opposite, IIRC.
It just wrecks the tune. 
It's always a nice day for it Have a good one! 
Steve.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Paul Ranson
I guess the problem is that there aren't (m)any speakers that produce more bass yet aren't better than the Kan.
The premise is that a better loudspeaker will expose the Nait.
I suggested s/h Kabers because they're (IMO) undervalued, have been reviewed well by Kan users, are a conservative choice, where Lowthers for example wouldn't be, don't take up any more floor space than Kans, can be pulled away from the wall a little and/or be toed in slightly to tweak them to the room.
The problem is (probably) that a Nait will struggle to drive them. An obvious match is a contemporaneous Linn amp. The LK280 is (IMO) very underrated, undervalued and definitely unfashionable enough to be fashionable. The LK1 is much more of a compromise with its XLR connectors and lack of volume control resolution at low levels. Perhaps there are other options there?
The problem and the budget constraint leads to a solution. However I await Tony's reports on bigger loudspeakers and the Nait with great interest. I would be very happy to be wrong.
Paul
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Tony L
quote:
However I await Tony's reports on bigger loudspeakers and the Nait with great interest.
The main misconception here is that big = hard to drive. More often the opposite is true…
Kans are a tiny sealed box, the only way the designer could get bass out of them is by turning the tweeter level right down and selecting a little bass driver that can actually move a hell of a long way (about 1cm in each direction). As a result of this they are very low efficiency, about 82-83db, and the amp has to work quite hard as it has to push the little bass driver a hell of a long way against the pretty stiff air resistance of the small sealed box. Despite these odds my big beefy 20 watt Nait can drive them far louder than I ever would want to listen - as stated earlier I am not a volume freak, I had to reach for the volume knob several times when Dave was around (Barik users always listen too loud!).
Lets compare the Kan to say a Naim Intro 2. The Intro 2 is a ported speaker, so there is less air resistance from the cabinet from the drivers perspective. The bass driver is also bigger, so does not need to be moved anywhere near as far to make the same amount of noise (err, music), it is also a more recent driver, so is probably lighter. The cabinet is massively bigger, so it is much easier to get deep bass notes out of, this means the crossover design need be far less drastic. Remember all a crossover can do is turn things down, so in a little IB speaker like a Kan everything else is turned down until the bass sounds enough. What this all adds up to is efficiency, and the Intro 2 is specified at 89db. A 7db difference. This is an enormous difference, absolutely huge, way more than the difference in power between my Nait and my old 250. I can not remember the math, but I am under the impression that something like a 1 or 2db gain in efficiency is worth a doubling in amplifier watts.
Bottom line is (and assuming the Kans didn't break first, which they obviously would) that the Nait will drive Intro 2s at a much higher level than say a 250 could ever drive Kans. Now if I were to get DBLs with their 92db efficiency I could blow the bloody ceiling of my flat with the Nait.
Part of my decision making process is to give the Nait 2 an easier life than it has into Kans. My figuring is that if as it can drive a tiny sealed speaker with a 5" long throw bass driver it can drive good range of things. Remember the Nait allegedly delivers more peak current than a Quad 405, and I have been in studios with those things rattling my bloody fillings through big Tannoys or JBLs.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by ken c
but I am under the impression that something like a 1 or 2db gain in efficiency is worth a doubling in amplifier watts. more like 3dB
enjoy
ken
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Tony L
quote:
more like 3dB
Cool, I knew someone would know that. So, the 7db difference between the Nait into Kans and Intros is the equivalent of cranking the watts per channel from 20 to over 80!
I realise that efficiency is only one parameter, and things like a reactive loading probably has more impact, but I it is important none the less.
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by bob atherton
Oh please Stallion, no more! Until now I have given you the benefit of the doubt on numerous occasions, against my better judgment. I am not a judgmental person, honestly, but you do not appear to have just a chip on your shoulder, it's the whole of bloody Harry Ramsdens!
Just lighten up & don't take peoples posts & life so damn seriously.
Bob.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
So, the 7db difference between the Nait into Kans and Intros is the equivalent of cranking the watts per channel from 20 to over 80!
With a given speaker doubling power should produce a 3dB increase in SPL.
However there are usually complications. Some speaker manufacturers quote efficiency based on the volts into 8Ohms that would dissipate 1W, and then use a 4Ohm speaker. So their 'watt' is actually 2.
(There is huge potential for confusion, 'dB' is a power ratio, but we're using it to describe voltage changes, a 3dB change is a factor of about 1.414, current goes in pro-rata to voltage, power is their product, so power goes up by 1.4*1.4 which is 2.)
FWIW I don't believe that amp power is the issue, you need a speaker that produces more low frequency output without compromising any other area and without revealing the Nait's limitations. I think this is a tall order and mulletdom lies each side of a very narrow path.
Paul
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
The Biggatron
I wouldn't let them in my house with a name like that.....
Paul
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by John C
"I fancy buying some Thelonious Monk records, now where can I find some? Please note that I said records… I want all of the early 60s Columbia ones, and so far I have none."
You can get new reissues of the columbias almost anywhere. If I let you have the website address of my secret jazz LP mecca, cheap and all mint in the UK, will you keep it to yourself?
John. d
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Craig B
quote:
FWIW I don't believe that amp power is the issue, you need a speaker that produces more low frequency output without compromising any other area and without revealing the Nait's limitations.
Agreed. A larger
and higher efficiency speaker than the Kan should not require more amplifier power than the Nait can muster to suitably drive the speakers to the levels that Tony prefers to listen at, assuming otherwise similar or even less demanding electrical properties.
I have driven a boatload of different speakers with my lowly Nait 2 over the years and it has never failed to deliver the goods at the reasonable levels that I have asked of it. The only exception were Saras which didn't allow enough of an operating envelope to make them a worthwhile proposition. BTW, I once heard Isobariks shaking the foundations on the end of a LP12/Nait 1 at the dealers and it sounded bloody good too!
quote:
I think this is a tall order and mulletdom lies each side of a very narrow path.
Given Tony's sources and the speakers that he has so far been considering, I would think that mulletdom would be an unlikely outcome. Maybe a mullet with bangs (Mulletbangapus) if SBLs or Isobariks were chosen. However, given something like Neats, Royds, Intro/Credo, or IBLs and Tony's hair shouldn't grow too long in back. Considering the many models available in just these three manufacturer's lines, I would imagine that he could find something to love.
I for one am looking forward to hearing the outcome of next Tuesdays trials.
Shall we commence taking bets?
Craig
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by garyi
I have heard ibls on the end of a midi type system and they sounded awsome, so I'll bet on Tony having to seriously consider them.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by bob atherton
is on the IBL's as well. Watch this space.
Bob.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Craig B
Agreed, however, I will raise you one and bet that Tony definitely ends up with IBLs. He loves what Kans do best and IBLs do that and more.
I have faith.
Craig
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Tony L
John C:
quote:
You can get new reissues of the columbias almost anywhere. If I let you have the website address of my secret jazz LP mecca, cheap and all mint in the UK, will you keep it to yourself?
Yes please, my email is in my profile.
Have you tried the Columbia 180g pressings? Diverse have a couple listed including 'Criss-cross' and 'Straight no chaser' - I need both urgently, my record collection is just plain wrong without them! I tried buying them both earlier on but their website craps out with any of the three methods I have for getting web access at work….
quote:
Given Tony's sources and the speakers that he has so far been considering, I would think that mulletdom would be an unlikely outcome. Maybe a mullet with bangs (Mulletbangapus) if SBLs or Isobariks were chosen. However, given something like Neats, Royds, Intro/Credo, or IBLs and Tony's hair shouldn't grow too long in back. Considering the many models available in just these three manufacturer's lines, I would imagine that he could find something to love.
If I do anything at all, I will consider it a side-grade purely to integrate the system better into my new room. This will have the benefit of bringing a definite upgrade to my second system, as the Kans can oust the Point 5s. The Kans will suit that room way better. I will then have the Point 5s and the spare Kan II stands (I've got a pair in each system) to flog off, that’s got to be worth about a ton combined.
I don't want anything more upmarket than Kans were they made now. I reckon Kans on stands would cost about £800-1k into today's money, they were always about LS3/5a price. I am very conscious of system synergy / balance, and do not want to upstage either my sources or amp, i.e. SBLs are out even though they are a genuine second hand bargain and would suit the room. I wouldn't want to go there with less than a XPS / 82 / Hicap 180 upstream, so in other words I don't really want to go there at all (too much cash).
Tony.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by garyi
Snigger, it was always going to be a safe bet, mind you I don't believe I have heard even one other of the speakers mentioned, including the Kans, so my bet isn't based on a lot.
I used to have some kef coda 7s.
snigger.
Oh and of course Credos, but I think he has ruled them out.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Paul Ranson
quote:
I don't want anything more upmarket than Kans were they made now
FWIW in 1989 Kans were £339 and IBLs £690. For reference a NAIT2 cost £325 and 32/HiCAP/250 £1987.
Paul
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Frank Abela
Quiet is the New Loud is awesome on vinyl.
Regards,
Frank.
All opinions are my own and do not reflect the opinion of any organisations I work for, except where this is stated explicitly.
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Justin
you wrote,
Agreed, however, I will raise you one and bet that Tony definitely ends up with IBLs. He loves what Kans do best and IBLs do that and more.
I have faith.
Are you suggesting that were Tony in the market, sbl's would do everything Kans to best and then more?
My sbl's certainly do NOT do what my Kan II's do best. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, everything my Kan II's do well, they do better than my sbl's (though, of course, something they simply do not do at all or at all well).
Judd
Posted on: 24 January 2002 by Craig B
I haven't had an opportunity to hear SBLs for a good few years now, however, I don't recall them sounding like Kans with more welly. I do remember thinking that they blew the doors off of any of Linn's (then) current offerings for speed and clarity across their respective operating ranges (but then again so did most of the UK's budget offerings at the time). I suppose that had I been in the market for a pair at the time I would have listened/compared more carefully.
I have had a couple of different pairs of Kans on home loan, however, with the last pair being late 2s (I really should have bought them!).
To me Kans and IBLs are chips off of the same block, only the IBL is a much bigger chip. They both exhibit bags of groove factor with the IBL offering a slightly wider window onto the proceedings and more 'poke' (for want of a better word). Speed is an absolute with both. There is something about well designed speakers that employ a single, high quality, small bass/mid driver that allows them to hug the curves of the music with amazing agility. Where the tune goes, they go.
It is this agility that drew me to IBLs when I first heard them some 15 years ago. It is this very same agility that makes me still want a pair of Kans for the spare room system.
Craig
