I've decided to sell the lot

quote:

I've decided to sell the lot

Dont do it. I did and regretted it!

My advice is to pack your hifi into the loft for 3 months. The set it all up again and listen. Familiarity breeds contempt...

Gordon

Rockingdoc I would suggest just one thing to try before you throw the towel in. Borrow a pair of 250.2s. I have a very similar configuration to you and in my listening room with hard wood floor the old 250 was occasionally giving me grief like that.

I find the new range power amp works fabbo with the 52. All the fun of olive but without the occasional bad mains/hair day.

all the best

Gary

Rockingdoc,

My advice is to take your time before doing anything drastic.

Find a good dealer, change your loudspeakers, if that doesn't work try and isolate your problem with your dealer's help. It may be just one component that is causing the dissatisfaction.

Also, in your quest, have a listen to the 5i range.

If you decide to move on, then take check out Linn and/or Totem+Rega. Somewhere along your quest you may want to check out Living Voice loudspeakers, possibly with DNM amplifiers.

If during that path you still don't find what you are looking for, then move to the "rounder" stuff.

Andrew

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
A Very Happy Christmas to all on the forum - naughty boys included.

Thanks, it's a fair cop guv.

I really do appreciate the efforts to help. I have two further sets of speakers, and three other power amps at home, so I have decided to lug it all around the house (knackered back again)and listen to combinations.
I think it is my hearing/taste that is changing, and that it is the NAC52+NAP250+SBL sound which I have gone off. Can't really experiment with my different pre-amps due to the oddities of Naim wiring.
However, my beloved valve headphone system is sounding dreadful this morning. Perhaps I better let someone look in my ears. Not that there is anyone round here I'd trust to do that right.

Doc
State of mind can play havoc with one's hearing. I suffered from quite severe depression awhile ago and through the lethargy of the condition I found that I really wasn't deriving the pleasure I had from music. As mt health improved so did my perception of the music....and then I bought my first Naim set-up and haven't looked back since.
Not suggesting that you are in the same state, just that there is a psycholigical dimaension to all this too.

And that Christmas has done nothing to improve my typing skills!

Rockingdoc,

You have my sympathy. I have a system that is close to yours, and ISTR that you used to sport a pair of Wilson Watt/Puppies as well?

I have an LP12/lingo/Linto/Ekos/Akiva and a CDS2/CDPS as sources feeding into a 52/135s/Wilsons. I also have a 250 and a pair of Isobrriks. With the LP12/52/135/Wilsons, I can (just) tollerate the shoutiness which AFAICT is a characteristic of Naim, especially the CB/Olive equipment. Several times I have considdered selling the lot and moving to another (round-earth) brand - hence my sympathy.

Why haven't I done so? Time and effort mainly. But also, cost!

It takes huge amounts of time and effort to research the sound of different brands, and even more time and effort to arrange extended home demonstrations of potential solutions. Plus of course Naim is reliable. And also every system, at any price, is a compromise on the real thing.

Of course every dealer out there is enthusiatically willing to co-operate with extended listening and home demos, all on the off-chance that you just might buy his (affordable ex-demo) solution as opposed to one of the other three (current) tenderers - whilst further appreciating that you might just decide to stick with what you've got anyway, or even move to A/V!

My guess is that a 555/552/500/good-speaker system could float your boat - but you have already indicated that £60k is more than you wish to spend this week on a record-player. Me too. I like music, but recorded music is way too compromised for me to pay that much for.

So how much would you be prepared to pay for an enjoyable sound? Is there any price-point in the Naim Reference System (which in my view is less shouty that the CB/Olive range)that you would be prepared to fund. If so, my advice woould be to try a dealer demo of that equipment and comapre that with a dealer demo of the alternate system that most takes your (affordable) fancy and start from there.

I did this about six months ago when I compared a 555/552/500/B&W801D (at £60) with a Krell Evolution/Wilson System 8 set-up at approx (£50k). Both were far too compromised to justify parting with the asking price. Time has precluded going any further, but I wouldn't be prepared to spend even half those summs of money to aquire that level of performance. So at present, I continue to tollerate the "shouty" presentation that is Naim, rather than some other compromise, and limit my choice of music to records and cds that avoid the excess of this compromise.

Sympathy, and not much help. But you are not alone.

cheers

Don

Rockingdoc

I think you have too many systems, each, presumably, sounding different.

That said, you have at least one system (headphone) which gives you most pleasure. If you no longer enjoy the naim sound there is no point in my opinion in investing any more time and/or money on it. No one has to like something forever.

If I were you, I would try to find a system that produces a sound that best matches what you enjoy in the headphone system.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Atkinson:
Rockingdoc,

You have my sympathy. I have a system that is close to yours, and ISTR that you used to sport a pair of Wilson Watt/Puppies as well?

Good memory Don, that was years ago. Sold them to a partner at my work who has let his toddlers destroy them. No, really; punched all the cones in.

quote:

My guess is that a 555/552/500/good-speaker system could float your boat - but you have already indicated that £60k is more than you wish to spend this week on a record-player.
Don

Have listened, and I like very much, but can't really spare more than a couple of thousand at present. I've stayed off the upgrade treadmill for a while now, and am keen to continue to avoid. If however, it was as simple as say a SCap for the SNAXO for a truly dramatic improvement, I could be tempted. My dealer is a nice guy, but I am an easy target and Know if I walk in his door I will spend more than I can spare.

quote:

If however, it was as simple as say a SCap for the SNAXO for a truly dramatic improvement, I could be tempted.

This seems to equate to a net outlay of say £2k

So you could realistically get your (Naim) dealer to demo improvements at the cd transport or the cd power supply or the pre-amp or the power amp for the same £2k (Supercap £2.5k less Hi-cap trade-in at £500)

eg swap hi-cap/snaxo/2x250 for a single 300 + passive x-overs (probably cost about £2k to swap?)
or swap 52 for 282 (could you do that for £2k or would you need to drop to a 202?)
or swap the entire Olive Kit+SBLs at Trade-in price+£2k for new lower-range Reference Kit

Anyway, the general principle is there. And it sounds as if your dealer could advise the best options to consider at a £2k upgrade price and would be willing to demonstrate the effects. If his first two attemps don't deliver, then you and he both know its curtains for the £2k further investment in Naim! I think you owe it to yourself to try this, if only to put your mind at rest. Personally I don't anticipate it being succesful and certainly not the "truly dramatic improvement" you refer to above.

Plan B would then be to audition Krell (substitute you favorite alternative) in the price range of (your trade-in Naim kit plus £2k - lets say £10k total?). This would probably mean a new dealer? and is a fairly modest budget in (exotic) hi-fi terms. (just try walking into Curry's with a "modest" £10k!!!!!!!)

I think you could achieve a (satisfactory) new sound with second-hand kit from the likes of (say) Krell (eg based around one of their FPB300 or 600 power amps), that would be within your budget, but I'm not so sure about new kit.

As I said before, it takes time and effort, with no guarantee of success.

Cheers

Don

quote:

With the LP12/52/135/Wilsons, I can (just) tollerate the shoutiness which AFAICT is a characteristic of Naim, especially the CB/Olive equipment.

Your Linn/Naim/Wilson combo shouty?

Is it all the time or when you turn up the volume?

Mine can keep a treble civility a lot longer.

quote:

However, my beloved valve headphone system is sounding dreadful this morning. Perhaps I better let someone look in my ears. Not that there is anyone round here I'd trust to do that right.

doc,

This is a tell-tale sign of your mind going off.
Dont' do anything hasty. Mind is a powefull thing and sometimes it has more influence in how your hifi kit sounds.

That said, one of the nice interesting pairing I have heard was an SBL driven by a valve amp.

A Naim pre and valve power amp can work wonderfully.

Give it a try before you sell off the whole lot.

quote:

That said, one of the nice interesting pairing I have heard was an SBL driven by a valve amp.

A Naim pre and valve power amp can work wonderfully.

Give it a try before you sell off the whole lot.

That sounds like a good idea, I happen to think Naim sources work well with (some) valves - but then I would.

Have a look in the other place, I seem to remember a thread about SBLs and valves a while back.

Steve

Doc,

Has your dealer experienced the system's "shoutiness?" If so, what's his opinion? Assuming he has no solution other than throwing money at the problem, have you considered talking to Naim direct for a possible factory rep visit?

regards,

dave

quote:

Originally posted by kuma:
A Naim pre and valve power amp can work wonderfully.

.

Well, I've got a pair of old Quad IIs in the cupboard. So some new valves then; 52/Quad II/SBLs. Now that would be weird. I'll report back if I do it (I suspect the Quads are under-powered for SBLs).

Now for the technical bit. For all these odd power amps, should I still take the signal from the Supercap, or from the NAC52?

quote:

Originally posted by dave simpson:
Doc,

have you considered talking to Naim direct for a possible factory rep visit?

regards,

dave

I don't think they'd be very excited about visiting an olive system unless I had a lot more than 2K to play with.

You might be surprised...it should be about what you've spent, not what you could spend. I have a feeling they'd come up with a solution.

regards,

dave

quote:

[ Perhaps I better let someone look in my ears. .

doc,

This is a tell-tale sign of your mind going off.
.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I'll remember that the next time someone tells me their hearing is off

I'm just gobsmacked by this thread. Selling your whole Naim system because it sounds shouty?

I don't have a spare 5 mins at the moment, but there are dozens of minor changes which can be done to alleviate a lot of what you call shouty. One single change won't solve the whole problem, but accumulated together, you will be surprised.

You seem to have your budget spread over many components and only a few of them are high up the upgrade list. Your Troika must be a few years old! Your 250 is a shouty amp. Your hicap should be changed for Supercap. Gaps in your racking. Shahinian speakers don't shout, most others that I've heard do, cd always shouts to me, loud speakers in a room is not the same as listening to headphones........

Take your time. Re-visit the system after a little break. I have recently been thinking of changing my SBLs - have been getting the urge for more bass.

Yet for the past few days they are well and truly on song. Enjoying a little bit of Spock's Beard and they are singing. It's making me think twice.

So, take your time. Have a rest. Revisit the system. And to satisfy that nagging feeling try out a few other systems at local dealers.

quote:

Originally posted by Rockingdoc:
Thanks, I'll remember that the next time someone tells me their hearing is off

doc,

I didn't mean it anyway negative.

When one is stressed out at work or whatever the reason, sometimes, a hifi kit doesn't sound good at all no matter what!

Altho, I use music as a mean to pull me out of a slump. ( cheaper than a shrink, surely!~ )

As for a Quad amplifier, if it's really old, it might need some servicing or retubing, but should give some idea what it's like. You probably need a custom DIN/RCA or DIN/DIN configured for the Quad amp. ( IIRC, pin configuration is different from Naims )

I've been running my valve amps for last few weeks giving a 300 a bit of rest.
It sure isn't the Kosher Naim sound®, but the combo does some wonderful thing.

quote:

Now for the technical bit. For all these odd power amps, should I still take the signal from the Supercap, or from the NAC52?

From the Supercap.

If you listen mostly to vinyl, the Troika is an obvious culprit IMO - the Akiva is far ahead.

rockingdoc, i fully sympathise with the problems you are facing. however, whatever you do, i would advise that you NOT rush to sell anything at this stage.

i recall when i was running a similar active system sometime ago that the music just went off, for no reason, or so i thought at the time. eventually i found a snaxo/supercap snaic connection was a bit looser than it should be and when i pushed it in a bit more, voila!

then last year, i went through a very frustrating experience with my system, which i eventually nailed down to be a mains problem. i have fixed that now. of course, i am not suggesting that your problem is anything to do with mains.

i dont believe there is anything wrong with your hearing. neither do i believe that you need spend any more money upgrading anything. that system as is should sound gobsmackingly fantastic, period, assuming of course that it is fully re-run in after the service.

the services of a good dealer may come in handy here. this will help you to do component substitution and therefore isolate any possible component fault. another thing to try to listen to a similar system at your dealers, or at a friends house.

hope this helps...

enjoy
ken

Where's doc?

For what it's worth there's some good suggestions here about checking set-up etc but in my view the simple fact of the matter is that SBL's have a somewhat unusual tonal balance (and I speak as an owner!) They are stunningly fast, dynamic and transparent as we all know and with a high quality recording sound amazing but frankly stick U2's Joshua Tree or Springsteen's Born in the USA on and turn up the wick and they can sound very bright and shouty indeed.

On albums like that there's no question in my mind that ATC, Shahinian, B&W etc will on balance be a more comfortable listening experience. This characteristic is probably the most irritating thing about the SBL in my view and has on occasion prompted me to think about considering changing them too. The problem is that when you then put something well produced on (like say a Mary Black CD or Fleetwood Mac Rumours) the SBL sound better than anything else in their price bracket.

Or at least that is what I thought until I reviewed the ATC SCM20 Mk2 and realised they could do it all. They have got the transparency, speed and dynamics of the SBL coupled with an incredible ability to resolve tonal colour with utter neutrality. Somehow on top of this they manage to avoid some of the less desirable aspects of the SBL.

If memory serves you can buy the SCM20 for around £2000 so if you can sell your SBL for £750-£1000 then the net cost of the change will be just over a grand. I can't comment on the SCM35 but they would appear to be even more of a bargain and frankly would be at the top of my list if I was buying my system again now.

Just my humble suggestion but I would suggest borrowing a pair for a weekend to see what you think - my 250 drove them with no probs.

Jonathan