Beethoven

in all of beethoven's symphonies, you can hear his voice. he has a distinctive way of voicing the orchestra. but in 1,2,4, 6, and 8 i hear Haydn and mozart's influence - especially haydn.

try listening to haydn's london symphonies, and then beethoven's first two symphonies just afterwards.

but you are right that beethoven moved far beyond his predecessors. of all composers, i hold beethoven in highest regard, the greatest of the great. and to my ears the freshest, most modern works of any century.

I have just listened to his first string qt [opus 18 No.1, perhaps his second?] and again the predominent music I hear is Beethoven. I'll try the London link too - I've enjoyed these since they were recommended to me before Christmas. Thinking a bit more perhaps 'knowing' Beethoven before Haydn has influenced me irrevocably in this way of hearing music
SJ

the haydn london symphonies that get the most spins on my rig are the jochum/LSO set, which i have on lp - don't know if they are still available.

if you want to stretch your ears and your mind, give the last 3 piano sonatas a try :

no. 30, op. 109
no. 31, op. 110
no. 32, op. 111

pollini on dgg is a terrific reading of these, that never fails to illuminate the lines.

I have Colin Davies Concertgebouw for the London and Pierre-Larent Aimard/ Harnoncourt for the Piano concertos. I like these very much.
bw
SJ

quote:

Originally posted by stephenjohn:
I have Colin Davies Concertgebouw for the London and Pierre-Larent Aimard/ Harnoncourt for the Piano concertos. I like these very much.
bw
SJ

You won't do much better than these, but is your Beethoven also played on modern instruments? If it is a "period instrument" performance then the sound differences could alter your perceptions. Just a thought, But what really matters is that both composers were giants.
Ken

Beethoven music sounds like Beethoven music - am I missing something here?

quote:

Originally posted by Derry:
Beethoven music sounds like Beethoven music - am I missing something here?

yes.

Am I the only person who loves the 7th? It's one of the most exhilarating pieces of music I've ever heard but seems to be regarded almost as a minor work.

Not by me.

None of them are minor pieces!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by TomK:
Am I the only person who loves the 7th? It's one of the most exhilarating pieces of music I've ever heard but seems to be regarded almost as a minor work.

I heartily agree on both accounts, Tom.

Best,
Fred

I suppose I am suggesting that genius will come out and is constraned by the current context rather than built upon
SJ

quote:

Originally posted by stephenjohn:
I suppose I am suggesting that genius will come out and is constraned by the current context rather than built upon
SJ

i don't think anyone ever constrained beethoven in anything musical.

i love the seventh symphony.

and the last 3 piano sonatas knock my socks off, suprised no one else commented on these.

Not even his pedagog, Joseph Haydn, who gave him up as too free-willed!

It was Albrechtsberger who took Beethoven on as a pupil after Haydn, but without realising it perhaps Beethoven never entirely overthrew the teaching that Haydn did instil!

But no, I am sure that Beethoven was never constrained! Hence the proud Haydn's rejection of his greatest pupil! [Not merely my view, as no other Haydn pupil would go on to be such a great composer as Beethoven - pace Fred].

ATB from George

I have a complete cycle of Piano sonatas on a period fortepiano from the label BIS and as Mike says some of them floor me. Only tried one set of them on a modern piano (which is an altogether different experience) though over time I will get to hear more when I can drag myself away from Mahlers symphonies. I also have a couple of vinyl copies of his first piano concerto which I'd also like to get more familiar with over time. Beethoven for me was easy to get into but more listening has brought more pleasure as I piece everything together now Mahler he takes a little more effort but is equally worth it IMHO.



Dean..

Can't have a Beethoven thread and not talk about the "Eroica" Symphony no. 3. It is scored for 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets in B flat, 2 bassoons, 3 horns in E flat and C, 2 trumpets in E flat and C, timpani and strings.
There are four movements:

1. Allegro con brio
2. Marcia funebre: Adagio assai
3. Scherzo: Allegro vivace
4. Finale: Allegro molto

This symphony changes everything, and it does so with a degree of invention and spontaneity
never before realized in a musical composition.
It sounds as though the ink on the score is still wet, no matter the players, and in a good performance will carry you to unplumbed heights time and again.

If I could only have one 19th century orchestral work, this would be it - and I would go for Gardiner/ORR.

only his last three piano sonatas move me more deeply, and especially op. 111. Arrau gives a beautiful reading, but I have to say Pollini stops my heart beating.

here's a free score to symphony no. 3 "eroica" :

http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.3%2C_Op.55_%28Beethov....2889_pages_total.29

yeah I love Beethoven too. I think people new to Classical should start with him then branch out. I've not heard the last 3 piano works but will in time. Pollini or Michaelangeli (sp?)

glenn

quote:

Originally posted by Wolf2:
I've not heard the last 3 piano works but will in time. Pollini or Michaelangeli (sp?)

glenn

if you find a michaelangeli let me know, i would like to hear that.

Mike, not sure whether you saw it, but awhile back there was a thread about Daniel Barenboim's most recent recordings of the entire cycle of LVB's piano sonatas. It's his third recording of the cycle, and this time it's live on DVD. Also included are some master classes with currently concertizing younger players such as Lang Lang and others.

I give my highest recommendation to this cycle. The combination of his piano chops and his conductor's-eye overview of the music makes for radiant clarity of the narrative continuity. He renders the syntax of the music as natural conversation, and playfully improvisational. Never have I heard a more extraordinary delineation of the musical architecture.

I also found his coaching of the younger pianists to be spot on ... the bit about needing to settle into a steady tempo so as not to rob syncopation of its vitality was exactly correct. He really understands so much about the big picture of music, and that makes for a deeper level of teaching, and performance. In fact, I'd say that anyone interested in learning something about the deeper nuts and bolts of music would do well to view these. I've been playing, studying, teaching, and recording music all my life, and Barenboim has the most uncanny ability to succinctly articulate the meat of the musical matter.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

Daniel Barenboim's most recent recordings of the entire cycle of LVB's piano sonatas.

thanks fred, i'm going to try to order this right now.

got it! fred, i feel like you just told me "look mike, there's $1000 at your feet!"
can't wait for them to arrive!

i love this forum :-)

I just received a DVD of Abbado/Berlin doing Beethoven's 3rd and 9th symphonies. I gave the 3rd a careful listen last night. For the past several years i have been consuming Gardiner/ORR Beethoven cycle with great pleasure. Gardiner's 3rd is pristine and full of wild energy, which never fails to stimulate, and the voicing's transparency benefits from the use of original instruments. the abbado/berlin is quite different. there is an ebb and flow in the meter that illuminates the lines, and berlin's warm, lush sound makes the music glow. my only beef with the abbado/berlin dvd is the strange camera work and the sometimes less than revealing recording (overall, the sound is acceptable to good). the camera man pans to a bassoonist who is obviously playing (but not a primary line), yet you can't hear a single note coming out of his instrument. that aside, the abbado reading is wonderfully lyrical, with instrumental color being put to effective use in every phrase.

i love seeing people play, and don't understand why dvds have not displaced cds completely. the dvd selections of classical music are pretty thin on the ground. but i think the abbado/berlin is a keeper. if the complete cycle was available on dvd, i wouldn't hesitate to add it to my collection.

the entire beethoven cycle by abbado/berlin is available on dvd. after i've digested the expense of the piano sonatas, i'm going to get the rest of the abbado/berlin symphonies.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

Daniel Barenboim's most recent recordings of the entire cycle of LVB's piano sonatas.

thanks fred, i'm going to try to order this right now.

got it! fred, i feel like you just told me "look mike, there's $1000 at your feet!"
can't wait for them to arrive!

You're more than welcome, Mike!

Do let us know what you think after they arrive. I think you'll revise that up to at least $100,000.

Best,
Fred

Fred,
I second your suggestion for the Barenboim DVD set on the 32 piano sonatas. This is a valuable set to have both from the performance aspect of a master musician but also that we can hear him give us an small bit of knowledge verbally through the master class portion. I'm glad I own this set.

last night, i gave a careful listen to the dvd abbado/berlin beethoven symphony no. 9.

first, about the recording and visuals themselves. a simple mike setup is used, like george prefers, and the sound is warm, detailed and very natural. for this performance, the video performance enhances the music.

the playing and conducting are of the highest quality.

the big tutti (didn't ref. the score, just noticed everyone was playing) at the end of the first movement demonstrates the finest ensemble playing by an orchestra of any beethoven symphony in my collection. In this symphony, you get to hear the orchestra play as if it were a single instrument - they get ppp to fff together (not in tiers).

the second movement is white hot! the third is beautifully executed, and is filled with emotion and feeling. this appears to result from a level of communication between the conductor and the orchestra that is rarely experienced, and a delicacy in phrasing that is so refined it elevates expression to the sublime. this would be an excellent disk for demonstrating the correct use of rubato by an orchestra.

the fourth movement is a little tarnished, because the vocals do not enjoy the refinment of execution so apparent in every note played by the orchestra. but the vocals are competent, in tune and on time, althought the chorus' rhythm is a little "soft". the singers do, however, do a good job with dynamics.

all in all, a very enjoyable rendering, and i will be spending more time with this disk.
until the vocalist enter, this is an irrefutable interpertation unsurpassed in my experience.

of all composers, beethoven may be the most resilent. there is so much musical content, so expertly voiced, so much invention in the treatment of themes, that any performance is worth hearing, and the possibilities for interpertation seem endless. he is not given enough credit as an orchestrator, yet in my opinion no one is better.

i ordered the rest of the beethoven symphonies in this set this morning :-)

Further thoughts on whether Beethoven was liberating himself from his teachers or building upon them. Hearing echos of his predecessors in his works does not suggest any new information either way. However, hearing Beethoven-like music in the work of his predecessors suggests buliding rather that liberating.
I have been listening to Mozart's Prague symphony [the Mackerras recommended here] and wonder if I can hear a prediction of what was to come from Beethoven.

atb

SJ