Use of mediums to help in crime

Posted by: wellyspyder on 17 April 2006

Just been watching some doco on the use of mediums to help resurect leads in cases which have gone unsolved. Some of these cases go back more than 20 years. Pretty convincing but I remain sceptical.

The medium are sometimes just given a photo or a posession of the deceased. The doco depicts the mediums ability to recount the police investigation up to the point when the leads went cold and sometimes further, allegedly producing new avenues of enquiry. Great if it is true. Just hope that the families of these victims are not going to be given false hopes. Anyone got any experience with this?

PS: Obviously, the local copper would deny the use of mediums to help in cases, statement from the doco.
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by 7V
Many years ago I wired a medium up to biofeedback and brainwave monitoring equipment. I recall that she achieved physiological changes that were quite exceptional and demonstrated a level of control unlike anything I'd seen before. With her eyes closed, her 'control' - some crazy Egyptian - managed to manipulate her brainwaves in a way that she, a housewife, could not have known about. To be honest it sent shivers up my spine. However, while 'under his influence' she talked a load of crap - "You're going on a journey over water", etc.

I'm not sure whether or not she was actually in contact with the spirit of a dead person, although I have no other explanation for what I saw. However, I have no doubts whatsoever that she believed that she was. She was genuine without doubt.

There's a lot of strange stuff 'out there'.

Regards
Steve
Posted on: 17 April 2006 by wellyspyder
quote:
Originally posted by 7V:

There's a lot of strange stuff 'out there'.

Regards
Steve


You don't say. If it is true, then it is scary. I mean the ability to give factual account of what happened without prior knowledge, so it seems. Like I say I do not believe but then no one has TOTALLY discredit it, not that I know of anyway. Spooky.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Rasher
My sister knows Uri Geller quite well, having collaborated with him in a few projects (she is a well known astrologer - not a cop). He earns a good deal of his income now by divining over maps looking for oil fields. He also regularly works with the police. It's nothing new and it goes on all the time in the background with very little fuss.
Sometimes you read about a solved crime where the account descibes the criminal being found by a ridiculously obscure coincidence - usually a case that remained at a dead end for ages. If you think about it, it often doesn't make sense how these people are caught. The main problem being, obviously, that it doesn't stand up in court as evidence and the method hasn't been tried for lawfulness as far as I know.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
My sister knows Uri Geller quite well, having collaborated with him in a few projects (she is a well known astrologer - not a cop). He earns a good deal of his income now by divining over maps looking for oil fields. He also regularly works with the police. It's nothing new and it goes on all the time in the background with very little fuss.
Sometimes you read about a solved crime where the account descibes the criminal being found by a ridiculously obscure coincidence - usually a case that remained at a dead end for ages. If you think about it, it often doesn't make sense how these people are caught. The main problem being, obviously, that it doesn't stand up in court as evidence and the method hasn't been tried for lawfulness as far as I know.


Dear Rasher,

According to James Randi, a former professional magician and now a professional debunker of people claiming psychic powers Uri Geller is just a common or garden magician and con-man.

Randi - Geller

James Randi has offered a prize of $1million to anyone who can prove psychic abilities and despite many attempts no one has ever got near to being able to do so. It makes for hilarious reading. One would think Geller who is not exactly shy coming forward to brag about his abilities would have accepted the challenge but maybe he knows it takes a magician to catch a magician?
Randi Paranormal Challenge

Randi Foundation

James Randi is not without his skeptics either as this site shows Examining the skeptics

Who knows who is right and who is wrong? Not moi.

Regards,

Erik
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Bob McC
Uri Geller didn't do Exeter City much good did he?
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Rasher
Geller has made a good living at doing what he is doing - self promotion. Whether he is genuine or a fraud I haven't the faintest idea.
James Randi is a nasty piece of work and is a closed mind, never accepting anything he didn't want to, so becomes entirely unreliable, probably dishonest and therefore valueless. He has made a good living at doing what he is doing though - self promotion. Even if he is right and it's all a lot of nonesense, he wraps himself in a cocoon of negativity and expoits it for his own gain, which doesn't do very nice things to the soul.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
Geller has made a good living at doing what he is doing - self promotion. Whether he is genuine or a fraud I haven't the faintest idea.
James Randi is a nasty piece of work and is a closed mind, never accepting anything he didn't want to, so becomes entirely unreliable, probably dishonest and therefore valueless. He has made a good living at doing what he is doing though - self promotion. Even if he is right and it's all a lot of nonesense, he wraps himself in a cocoon of negativity and expoits it for his own gain, which doesn't do very nice things to the soul.


I agree Randi is certainly unkind to the point of being downright beligerent. He has to belittle people which is a sad trait. He seems to have a huge chip on his shoulder too. Some of his reports on those who have taken him up on his million dollar challenge are hilarious and some are just downright cruel but on balance, personalites put to one side for a moment, I would tend to believe Randi over Geller et al. However in the spirit of fairness I included a link to an anti Randi website.

My understanding is that anyone taking Randi up on the million dollar challenge AGREE the basis by which they will be deemed to be succesful and they all fail by not meeting the AGREED target and this is independently scrutinized. Is there evidense of anyone saying they met the criteria but were refused the prize? That would be a scandal and it would show Randi to be a very slippery customer indeed. I will do a search.

I just watched the clip of Geller on the Carson show where he was put on the spot and found to be painfully lacking, but is the clip edited or cut short?

I remember the stopped watch/clock trick where Geller told the nation (millions were watching) to put any stopped watch or clock on the tv and he would start them through his mental power. The fact is if 200,000 watches or clocks are taken out of drawers and moved to a gently vibrating tv a percentage will start as the springs react to the moving or the tv vibration and if the % is only 10% that would be 20,000 people jamming the the BBCs phone lines. Even 2,000 callers would jam phone lines. So the host of the tv show reports the phone lines are jammed with callers and the country thinks they have witnessed a true psychic phenomena. Miracle or complete con?

What I have found so bloody infuriating all my life is that it is almost impossible to believe in anything because no matter how compelling some things are or seem to be there is always some equally compelling 'expert' who says or demonstrates the exact bloody opposite and the only way to discriminate between the two is to embark on a lifelong study with no guarantee of illumination at the end of it. I think people believe what they want to believe and what they want to believe is largely driven by emotion rather than intellect. It's all so bloody confusing.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Rasher
quote:
Originally posted by erik scothron:
What I have found so bloody infuriating all my life is that it is almost impossible to believe in anything because no matter how compelling some things are or seem to be there is always some equally compelling 'expert' who says or demonstrates the exact bloody opposite and the only way to discriminate between the two is to embark on a lifelong study with no guarantee of illumination at the end of it.

If you take the above and substitute "know" for "believe in" I might have agreed with you.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Rasher:
quote:
Originally posted by erik scothron:
What I have found so bloody infuriating all my life is that it is almost impossible to believe in anything because no matter how compelling some things are or seem to be there is always some equally compelling 'expert' who says or demonstrates the exact bloody opposite and the only way to discriminate between the two is to embark on a lifelong study with no guarantee of illumination at the end of it.

If you take the above and substitute "know" for "believe in" I might have agreed with you.


'know' works for me Cool
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Gianluigi Mazzorana
Good evening to all!
Maybe a good medium could help me tryin' to find the CDs i ordered a months ago and that are somewhere........................in the darkness!
Cool
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Bob McC
Uri'll tell ya!
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Alexander
I prefer not to be 'politically correct and skeptical' about this. I think Geller is a fraud and Randi is not, and I wish everyone had some of Randi's skills(instead of just his reports).

That said, even if we would accept that Randi is a first rate debunker, as a job description debunking remains a bit narrow. Debunkers consider themselves as weeders, not gardeners. They weed out falsity, disregarding value. That's a pretty harsh approach. Doesn't lead to pretty gardens.

Some possible problems:
- excessive debunking: plain errors. Maybe a tiny fraction of the totality.
- generalisations: Suppose you prove that mindreading does not exist. Case closed. Fine. Then someone claims that after a short talk with you they can tell if you have children or not. Can't be? How well can some people(and animals) 'read' others by conscious and subconscious observation/interaction?
- counterproductive debunking: polarising people so you're only preaching to the converted
- missing out value:
- it's not because a medium is bad at understanding the mechanics, that there is no valuable skill there. If you have a medium look for oil fields, I'd consider that silly 'it might just be true' thinking. If a truthteller is asked to assist in a police interrogation, the reasoning might be different, but it will not be seen that way. (In practice any skill might have been so mismanaged as to become unusable).
- if you debunk a harmless superstition, then what are you going to replace it with? Is that someone else's problem?
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by 7V
Healing is something I do believe in.

Although not necessarily 'curing' and certainly not as a replacement for medical attention.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Gianluigi Mazzorana
I know people who can cure a backache or a sinusitis with their hands.
But those who say they can cure cancer and gain money on people pain, knoing for themselves that the things they do are "0", should be jailed.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by 7V
I used to go quite regularly to the Royal Shrewsbury Hospital where I would join with healers working with cancer patients.

No one ever talked of curing cancer and, in fact, I've never heard of any healer saying such a thing.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Bob McC
'Healers' - charlatans. Disgusting frauds who should be vilified at every available opportunity.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by bob mccluckie:
'Healers' - charlatans. Disgusting frauds who should be vilified at every available opportunity.

I have seen evidence that healers exhibit certain brain wave patterns that are also found in meditators (Erik, where are you?). These patterns are often induced in the 'patient'. All healing is self healing.

So, here's an opportunity, Bob. I'm a healer. Vilify me. Big Grin However, as I (like the vast majority of healers) make no claims of cures and as I charge no money for this work, what exactly should I be villified for?

Steve
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
quote:
Originally posted by bob mccluckie:
'Healers' - charlatans. Disgusting frauds who should be vilified at every available opportunity.

I have seen evidence that healers exhibit certain brain wave patterns that are also found in meditators (Erik, where are you?). These patterns are often induced in the 'patient'. All healing is self healing.

So, here's an opportunity, Bob. I'm a healer. Vilify me. Big Grin However, as I (like the vast majority of healers) make no claims of cures and as I charge no money for this work, what exactly should I be villified for?

Steve


There was a tv documentary on healing recently researched, written and presented by a sceptical scientist. The scientist concluded that healing was indeed self healing, the body has an inate ability to heal itself given certain conditions amongst which are faith in a healer.

In some countries surgeons are performing 'ghost surgery' (I think they called it this)on patients e.g. an elderly man who could not walk and had extremely painful knees was told he would have parts of his knee replaced/repaired, the surgeons anaesthestised the patient, opened up his knees and did absolutely NOTHING more other than stitch him up again and the patient was walking completely cured within days. All this is well documented.

The healing that goes on in evangelical churches in the states etc. works on the same level as the placebo effect. The worshippers think it is proof of God blessings but it is just the placebo effect according to the scientist.

edited - 'Ghost surgery' is the wrong term as I just googled it and got something different.

BTW - the BBC documentary by Kathy Sykes is controversial and some say she used 'bad science' although Kathy is a Professor.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by erik scothron:
...The worshippers think it is proof of God blessings but it is just the placebo effect according to the scientist.

Well he would say that, wouldn't he? Smile

Seriously though, I'm often amazed by medical people using the phrase 'just the placebo effect'. I believe that it is one of the most valuable, amazing, yet under-explored avenues of medicine.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Mark Dunn
Hi all,

It's good to see some open minds here talking about this subject.

Being trained as a scientist (physicist) I always try to look for the scientific explanation and statistical likelihood for an incident. However, I've witnessed some things that defy so called "rational explanation" and it makes me wonder what most of us are missing.

I have a good friend who is psychic (for want of a better word) and she's told me things about myself that nobody knows (and neither should they!)
During her normal everyday life this 'gift' manifests itself as an extraordinary ability to size up individuals, situations, and events and predict outcomes with uncanny accuracy. When she meditates her ability becomes extremely tightly focused. She accepts that she's a little different from most people, but the thing that she finds most disconcerting is her inability to switch it off, so in certain situations she can become visibly uncomfortable and jittery.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by 7V
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dunn:
...but the thing that she finds most disconcerting is her inability to switch it off, so in certain situations she can become visibly uncomfortable and jittery.

Traditionally, in some parts of Tibet a trainee-Swami would study with his master and, after some time, would qualify to attain a certain Siddhi or power.

There's a story of one such trainee who was informed by his teacher that he could, if he wished, attain the Siddhi of telepathy.

The student gave this some thought but couldn't decide if he wanted this power or not so he went to his teacher to ask his advice. The teacher said that he should spend 3 nights in a wooden hut in the mountains.

The student duly spent 3 nights sleeping in this hut but it was an absolute nightmare. In the hut next door was a couple who spent the entire time arguing and shouting at each other. When the period was over the student went back to his teacher who asked what the experience had been like. The student told him that it was awful, that he hadn't slept a wink because of this couple's constant bickering.

"Ah!" said the teacher. "Perhaps that would be what it would be like for you if you had the power of telepathy". "Perhaps you'd find it difficult to switch it off."

The student decided to stay on his path of meditation and not to bother with 'special powers'.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by 7V:
quote:
Originally posted by erik scothron:
...The worshippers think it is proof of God blessings but it is just the placebo effect according to the scientist.



quote:
Well he would say that, wouldn't he? Smile


Moi? Eek Why I was only quoting the scientist who had a whole bunch of letters after her name (actually she's a Proff)!!. She went to several big evangelist meeting in the states and noted the different stages each meeting went through and saw how each was very very carefully orchestrated (I've witnesed this myself)- I can't remember all the stages but it is certainly planned and manipulative (I use the word manipilative without negative connotation)some attending the meetings were tested scientifically after it finished and were shown to have elevated endorphin levels etc. Unfortunately I can't remember too many details as I was playing chess online while the programme was on and only glanced at it since she only confirmed my opinion.

I agree the placebo effect is too readily scoffed at, in fact the placebo effect is proven to be as succesful as some 'real' medicine. I think the success rate for placebo is 40%? Many here who may scoff at it have probably experienced placebos themselves as increasingly placebo medicines are prescribed by GPs without you knowing it!! LOL

BTW - I used to have appalling migraines 2 or 3 a month and 2 or 3 severe headaches per week. I did some intensive meditation on a certain 'healing deity' during a bad migraine without resorting to medication and the pain got worse and worse and I lay in agony in alternating hot/cold sweats for hours but I never stopped the meditation even when the pain got to be intolerable until I fell asleep exhaused. After the longest night of my life I can tell you all, swearing on all that is holy, that I not only had no migraines again I had no headaches at all for 18 months. I have not had a migraine for 8 years now and headaches are rare.

Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Mark Dunn:
Hi all,

It's good to see some open minds here talking about this subject.

Being trained as a scientist (physicist) I always try to look for the scientific explanation and statistical likelihood for an incident. However, I've witnessed some things that defy so called "rational explanation" and it makes me wonder what most of us are missing.

I have a good friend who is psychic (for want of a better word) and she's told me things about myself that nobody knows (and neither should they!)
During her normal everyday life this 'gift' manifests itself as an extraordinary ability to size up individuals, situations, and events and predict outcomes with uncanny accuracy. When she meditates her ability becomes extremely tightly focused. She accepts that she's a little different from most people, but the thing that she finds most disconcerting is her inability to switch it off, so in certain situations she can become visibly uncomfortable and jittery.

Best Regards,
Mark Dunn


Hi Mark,

Yes, I could sit here all night writing examples of what you detail above, examples I know to be true of friends and examples I have experienced myself. I have had some truly weird experiences whilst on meditation retreat but it is not considered 'good practice' to reveal them. Sadly my experiences have not extended to foresight of 6 numbers between 1 and 48 on a saturday night but when you see me banging on about how my new Zanden HiFi is better than any Naim system you will know I got it cracked. Of course I am only joking, these so called miracle powers are by-products of high spiritual realisation by which time the practitioner would have no need for HiFi or lotto wins.

I think we all have some psychic powers and these can be realised with training.

Regards,

Erik
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by Adam Meredith
It is possible that some special insights come from "deficits".

Reading from Oliver Sacks' - "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".

Wikipedia -
"The President's Speech" - about a ward of aphasiacs and agnosiacs listening to a speech given by President Reagan. Each group saw flaws in the president's content and presentation respectively, flaws which escaped the notice of 'normal' people.
Posted on: 18 April 2006 by erik scothron
quote:
Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
It is possible that some special insights come from "deficits".

Reading from Oliver Sacks' - "The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat".

Wikipedia -
"The President's Speech" - about a ward of aphasiacs and agnosiacs listening to a speech given by President Reagan. Each group saw flaws in the president's content and presentation respectively, flaws which escaped the notice of 'normal' people. This essay gives insight into techniques of propaganda.


Im sure some special insights can and do come from 'deficits' (is there a better word?)but certainly not all special insight comes from deficists. 'Deficits' in some areas are compensated with gains in other areas sometimes (savants and Aspergers?)but it takes a 'normal' person to recognise the special insight I guess.