Pianists are getting better, and recordings too.

My wife and I spent some time this afternoon looking through the Debussy Preludes.

One that really struck my fancy on paper is the Book 1 A Major (No. 4). It opens in your choice of 3/4 or 5/4. We tried a little bit of singing it each way. It's not good sight reading material :-)

Having been rebuffed by the music on that one, we just looked around a bit. We may start a little catalog of all the repeated fragments that Debussy uses in these preludes. For some odd reason, I would like to look at them side by side, to see what I can see.

The Zimerman Ravel Piano Concertos came today.
I am just going to say it is typical Zimerman : perfect in every technical detail, full of emotion, grace and taste.

My intention is to buy 1 or 2 Zimermans a month until I have every one. The last time I did that, it was for Pollini, several decades ago.

And Debussy is proving very entertaining. The scores for the preludes are going to get a lot more attention, and we will have a stab at sight singing rhythms again, and hopefully with more success. Books are going to get read as well, so it's off to the bookshelf ...

We own a metronome called a "Dr. Beat", that can do complex rhythms. It is beating 3 against 5 as I write this :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

The Zimerman Ravel Piano Concertos came today.
I am just going to say it is typical Zimerman : perfect in every technical detail, full of emotion, grace and taste.

Glad to hear it - The Debussy preludes are on my xmas list so hopefully Santa will oblige...

Mike,

Did you get round to ordering the Zimerman Chopin Concerti?

The Chopin got ordered this morning.

Dan, I have a musical question. In the Debussy Prelude No. 4 in A Major, Book 1, it starts out in 3/4 or 5/4. When I listen I hear a meter change in 1-2-3-1-2-1-2-3 and so on, as 3 then 2. We are trying to figure how the rhythm would differ if you did it in 3/4 or 5/4, but are stumped because it sounds mixed meter.

I've never seen this sort of notation before. Am I making a mountain out of a mole hill, or is there a "trick" to do the either/or?

This music is hard as hell to follow!

Mike,

I suppose the title of piece gives us a little clue to why the music is hard to follow.

The sounds and the scents turning/floating in the evening air.

You pose a very interesting question. I suppose that the simple answer is that Debussy knew what he wanted to write and thought that this 3/4 - 5/4 would be the easiest way to 'explain' it.

I suppose, you could consider that the first note (A) maybe thought of as a anacrusis... This would then work out (mathematically) like this:

3 - 1-2-3 1-2-3 1-2-3

However, 'moving' the barline would indeed change the stresses and shape of the opening figures. I think that the answer to your question is just play it as written. Throughout the piece the alternating 'feeling' is implied via the spacing of the motifs, and in the way these motifs are developed/extended.

Personally, I feel that the phrase markings are more 'important' than the barlines. There are many instances of rhythmic 'shift' that move the stressed beats to create hemiola (Left Hand, bb. 18 - 23). Sadly, counting and noting where the barlines occur lends little to understanding this one.

Thanks for that Dan. I'll try to follow it that way on the next few listens.

I read some reviews of the Zimerman Chopin Concertos. They have me really excited. I should have them next week.

Bach is a lot easier to comprehend on first reading than this 20th century music. But now my appetite is invigorated to learn the 20th century music.

Hope we stay forum mates for a while.

quote:

Bach is a lot easier to comprehend on first reading than this 20th century music.

But it is just as subtle.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:

quote:

Bach is a lot easier to comprehend on first reading than this 20th century music.

But it is just as subtle.

ATB from George

George, for me the difference is that if I spend 3 or 4 hours studying Bach, I want to go out into the world and make children, but if I spend an hour with 20th century music in deep study, I need a nap :-)

The 20th century music is an exotic dish with incomparable flavor. It's a meal. Living here in New Orleans, I decided to pursue food as much as I do music. Every meal is an occasion.
You only get so many meals ...

So 20th century music satisfies an entirely different appetite, and if you enjoy hearing players do the impossible, there can be no substitute for 20th century music, Paganini excepted.

quote:

Originally posted by Mat Cork:
Never mind all that hifi mumbo jumbo Mike...what about the hairs on the arms, that cd's leave so flat...and the lonely toe, so bereft of the tap?

Our boys (7 and 9) are huge Kiss fans. This is fine, but I try to expose them to some other stuff. The other day, I managed to capture their attention long enough to watch an old Bowie concert clip - Ziggy Stardust. I wanted them to see a snippet of the history of "theatre rock". Compressed lo-fi and pixellated yoo-toob visuals - but the hairs on my arm stood up. The music shines through. They watched the whole thing without turning away from the screen.

I feel a little sorry for Mike E in some ways - his high-level and somewhat analytical enjoyment seems so fragile and easily destroyed by (some) imperfections in reproduction.

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
I feel a little sorry for Mike E in some ways - his high-level and somewhat analytical enjoyment seems so fragile and easily destroyed by (some) imperfections in reproduction.

Not the case. I have hundreds of recordings I enjoy without reservation, and have been adding more every month of late.

In live performance, I am easier to please, but need make no apologies for the local musicians, who are stellar.

Being able to hear more than you did last month or last year is no detriment. Improved analytical skills allow you to keep your ears fresh for new things in music you already know.

I wouldn't have it any other way, and couldn't be happier. I've never enjoyed music more than over the last year. Never :-)

In particular, Zimerman and Hewitt made my year.

I was quite suprised to see KISS turn up on this thread ...

And this bears repeating, when I hear a great performance, I feel as if I am looking face to face with the composer, hearing what he has to say as if we were one. Composer, performer and listener are joined at a single point in time, the music palpable and real, emotion laid bare, it's listening to music and actually hearing it for what it is, free of any encumberance.

One final note. Bad intonation, insecure or otherwise flawed rhythm, and lack luster phrasing do nothing to improve the musical experience.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

quote:

Originally posted by winkyincanada:
I feel a little sorry for Mike E in some ways - his high-level and somewhat analytical enjoyment seems so fragile and easily destroyed by (some) imperfections in reproduction.

I was quite suprised to see KISS turn up on this thread ...

Me, too!

I went looking for Zimerman doing Beethoven Sonatas and any Bach, can not believe I came up empty handed!

He hasn't got a huge discography unfortunately... You could try the Beethoven Piano Concerti... ?

His Chopin Ballades are superb - there is a DVD of him playing Chopin and Schubert - it is absolutely breathtaking! I believe there is a CD of some Zimerman Schubert.

You could try the Grieg and Schumann concerti with Z and Karajan.

His Rachmaninoff 1 and 2 are among some of the best interpretations ever released (IMO).

If you're feeling adventurous, try Zimerman's Lutoslawski concerto (it was written for Zimerman).

Happy listening!

I am going off to order the Chopin Ballades right now :-)

Speaking of modern pianists, I am enjoying Paul Lewis doing the Beethoven Sonatas. Not overly romantic but very musical and well recorded. I'm glad I held out until the box set was available.

Hewitt playing the Old Testament (WTC) and Lewis playing the New Testament (LVB sonatas) = Bliss to my ears

Walcha -> Old Testament.

Annie Fischer -> New Testament.,

Possible to see that here is no contest,

Friendly food for thought...

quote:

In this case it was Brahms [is Bach and Beethoven] of whom you should be star struck!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Walcha -> Old Testament.

Annie Fischer -> New Testament.,

Possible to see that here is no contest,

Blasphemer!!

To be fair to you, I have not heard either of these recordings, but to be fair to me the thread is about modern recordings.

Maybe we are talking New English (& Canadian) Translation versus King James.

I have Paul Lewis late Beethoven Sonatas on my "to buy" list, and would like to hear more about the last three sonatas, if you have the time and inclination to do so, DaveMS.

I still want to hear what you have to say, but I had to order Vol. 4 of the Beethoven by Paul Lewis, which contains the Op. 109/110/111. This is because your words prodded me :-)

Zimerman doing the Chopin Ballades got ordered as well.

For some reason I am obsessed with the piano lately, and less interested in the orchestra.

Appetites are strange things ...

Mike, I will try and give it a go, though being the Silly Season, quiet nights at home for uninterrupted listening are hard to find.

David

What music begins and ends in the same key, is full of V-I cadences, but can not be said to possess a specific tonality?

It must be the Debussy Preludes :-)

The Zimerman is sublime.

This morning, I woke up early and listened to Zimerman doing the Debussy Preludes again (9th time) - very satisfactory, but I put it up after the listen to let it "cool off". Then I did Abbado London on Petroushka and Pulcinella.

That did my ears in, and I was wondering if I'd have the "juice" to do more music today.

Then the mail came, and the Zimerman Chopin Concertos were in there! I resisted the impulse to tear it open and listen right away. After dinner, with brandy, we will give it a proper listen. My excitement is palpable :-)

Thanks again Dan, this music you turned me on to has me giddy like a 10 year old :-)

More later ...

Mike,

You are in for a real treat.

Everything (both piano and orchestra) has been crafted, voiced, layered, and meticulously worked out.

The result is nothing short of staggering. It is definitely not a 'textbook' Chopin, but such a high-level of artistry cannot be questioned (IMO). It is VERY different from every other Chopin Concerti recording.

I await your thoughts...

Taking a smoke break after the Chopin's 1st Piano Concerto. Zimerman produces, conducts and plays.

This piece is new to me.

Chopin's orchestra reminds you of Beethoven, but without the hard edges, especially in the orchestration. Zimerman achieves a fine balance in the orchestra and with the piano. The orchestra's playing is fine.

What struck me most was the second movement, where Zimerman sings an extended aria, a single voice, on the piano. He certainly has a profound understanding of melody.

I'll have to listen more.

Did you listen to the F minor too?