Pianists are getting better, and recordings too.

I gave the F Minor a listen early this morning.

It is terrifically well played.

These Chopin Concertos expose one of my failings as a listener. Piano Concertos are a musical form that I find it difficult to enjoy, excepting the Brahms Concerti, which are more like Symphonies than Concerti. I find them lacking in musical substance. I consider this a problem in me, not in the music, but nonetheless it is my gut reaction.

The other major mental block to music for me is the string quartet, where the homogeneous character of the sound quickly hypnotizes me, and I am dead asleep in 15 or so minutes.

I wish neither one of these were the case, but that's how things are for me.

Can't wait for the Ballades to arrive. I have Michelangeli doing them on LP, and that recording is a long time favorite. Zimerman should be a real treat.

Dan, I hope you can forgive me the flaws in my ear :-) Any commentary is quite welcome ...

Dan Carney, you there?

Sorry Mike !!

There are many criticisms of the Chopin Piano Concerti. Many people criticise his talents as an orchestrator, for example. I feel that this may have something to do with the whole genre of piano concerti.

Sometimes, composers favour the soloist over the orchestra (I sometimes feel this is some areas of the Chopins). Brahms struck a good balance between orch vs soloist - resulting in, as you point out, a more symphonic result. Rachmaninoff was a great orchestrator - and this shows in both his symphonies and piano concerti.

The Beethoven 3, 4, and 5 (piano concerti) are very good and rather symphonic too (I feel that Brahms owes a lot of Beethoven!).

There is an underlying issue with the recording and production of piano concertos. Different labels have different ideologies. DG give the piano almost 100% prominence - which is sometimes not the Composer's intentions. Phillips seem to strike a more 'realistic' balance between the two.

These comparisons were done with Brahms' Second Piano Concerto - DG was Zimerman + Bernstein, and the Phillips was Brendel + Abbado.

The string quartets - I have some favourites, but as a whole, they don't form a substantial part of my listening repertoire.

Glad to hear back from you Dan :-)

I am going to give the Chopin Concertos several more listens before I walk away. It is certainly full of beautiful moments.

The second movement of the F minor has an interesting story behind it...

Chopin knew of a singer who was beautiful, and also a great singer. However, she could never sing in time.

Chopin wrote this movement with her inmind - and that's why he delays/extends certain notes. I'll get out the score and highlight a couple of occasions...

quote:

.... a great singer. However, she could never sing in time.

That woul;d be a real contradiction in terms, IMO.

ATB from George

The Zimerman Chopin Balladen came today, so Mr. Zimerman is providing the entertainment again tonight :-)

George, are you suggesting that timing is an important attribute to a musician ?

Mike, I think the Balladen are very good! I hope they don't disappoint.

quote:

George, are you suggesting that timing is an important attribute to a musician ?

Might be!

ATB from George

Whilst I await Mike's comments and thoughts on Zimerman's Chopin 'Ballady' (Polish), I'd like to make some comments of my own.

My favourites are numbers 3, and 4. Whilst I enjoy playing, and listening to the other two, I favour 3, and 4.

Two of my previous piano teachers have been Polish, and subsequently, I feel a 'connection' to Chopin. One of these tutors was a student of Ryszard Bakst, and the other, a student of Jan Ekier and Witold Malcuzysnki - all three were prizewinners in the Warsaw Chopin Competition. My current teacher was a student of Vlado Perlemuter, so, I've had a great insight to Chopin - via the Polish 'school' and the French 'school'.

Both the 3rd and 4th Ballades share common difficulties - specifically, the first note(s). The opening of the third is a single E-flat. However, many people just 'play' the note, and not include it into the opening rising motif. I'm not saying it's easy, but it annoys me when people just 'play' it. The opening G-octaves in the 4th are very, very difficult. The sound, the dynamic, the articulation. So many pianists just 'play' the notes. This is wrong.

For me, the first note needs to have an almost ethereal quality, but this needs to be relation to what follows. The 4 opening Gs need to 'grow', but the E that occurs in the LH needs to do the exact opposite. If one masters this, they have perfected (almost) the art of Chopin-layering.

Mike, listen Zimerman's opening notes in isolation to listen to how much thought that has gone into each and every note. I learnt alot from just isolating certain notes, suspensions, harmonic shifts, etc.

Well gentlemen, this is indeed another fine reading for classical music newbees like me. Thanks all

Christian

Thanks Christian!

Do feel free to add !

On a smoke break after hearing the Zimerman Chopin Ballades, a Barcarole and a Fantasy.

This was a real pianistic evening. Chopin understands and loves the piano. He is very convincing.

Zimerman has a soft articulation that sounds like something from another world, and reserves of power without limit. And yes, his rhythm is exceptional.

Actually, it feels dumb talking about his technique, it is so flawless. But somethings are completely new to my experience.

The Steinway is a tad muddy in the bass. I wish he played a Faziloi :-) They have a crystal clear bass I have never heard from a Steinway.

In the end it doesn't matter, Zimerman is teaching me again.

Very enjoyable, well, a lot more than that.

That's all I'm good for now, more later.

We gave the Ballades a second listen last night, and in general they held us spellbound.

My wife Charlotte was inspired to yank out the sheet music and give them a try.

Zimerman reminds me of Joseph Hoffman doing Chopin, without being imitative in any way.
His articulation sounds utterly different than any pianist I have heard. I think it is a new level of perfection in articulation, at least for me. That's saying something, after Michelangeli and Pollini.

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Mike ,
What do you smoke on these smoke breaks ??

Camel Turkish Golds :-)

Nothing from Lebanon then?

Sorry chaps, just can't agree that pianists and recordings are getting better.

Played last night Emil Gilels' DG recording of Chopin's Third Sonata on my newly souped up LP12/Keel/ARO/Dynavector XX-2 Mk2. They just don't make pianists or recordings like that any more.

And I can't understand why DG never released it on CD.

G

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Sorry chaps, just can't agree that pianists and recordings are getting better.

Played last night Emil Gilels' DG recording of Chopin's Third Sonata on my newly souped up LP12/Keel/ARO/Dynavector XX-2 Mk2. They just don't make pianists or recordings like that any more.

And I can't understand why DG never released it on CD.

G

You have to listen to new recordings to see if they are better. The Chopin Ballades are from 1988, and they are very well recorded, if not quite as nice a recording as the newer Debussy Preludes by Zimerman.

Dan Carney, I have something I would like to discuss with you offline.

Please E-mail me at meschman@webdsi.com

:-)

I've mentioned this fantastic album in other threads, but it certainly bears mentioning again here:

Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor; Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major - Yundi Li, Seiji Ozawa, Berliner Philharmoniker





Some of my all-time favorite music, wonderfully performed and recorded ... highest recommendation.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

Piano Concertos are a musical form that I find it difficult to enjoy, excepting the Brahms Concerti, which are more like Symphonies than Concerti. I find them lacking in musical substance.

Mike, try the Prokofiev No. 2 in G minor that I mentioned above ... certainly not lacking musical substance!

quote:

The other major mental block to music for me is the string quartet, where the homogeneous character of the sound quickly hypnotizes me, and I am dead asleep in 15 or so minutes.

Even with the delightfully engaging, multicolored Ravel and Debussy quartets? If you fall asleep to those, you may be narcoleptic.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Fred,
Can you play the above Prokofiev?
Stu

Oh, god, no way ... it's one of the most technically demanding of all pieces. But the beautiful thing is that its virtuosity doesn't get in the way of its profound poetry. As I mentioned once before, the orchestra's re-entrance after the piano cadenza in the first movement sounds to me like an aural depiction of a vast star nursery ... cosmic birth.

All best,
Fred

Yundi Li is a great pianist - a winner of the Chopin Competition, no less.

Mike, I have sent you an email.

Thanks for reminding me Fred, just ordered :

Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor; Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major - Yundi Li, Seiji Ozawa, Berliner Philharmoniker

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:
Even with the delightfully engaging, multicolored Ravel and Debussy quartets? If you fall asleep to those, you may be narcoleptic.

All best,
Fred

They are quite beautiful, Fred. I just seem to be immune to the charms of the medium.

But I still try to listen every few weeks or so, to some string quartet, hoping things might change.