Pianists are getting better, and recordings too.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

Thanks for reminding me Fred, just ordered :

Prokofiev: Piano Concerto No. 2 in G minor; Ravel: Piano Concerto in G major - Yundi Li, Seiji Ozawa, Berliner Philharmoniker

Please drop a line after you've listened. I think you'll be blown away.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by munch:

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by munch:
Fred,
Can you play the above Prokofiev?
Stu

Oh, god, no way ... it's one of the most technically demanding of all pieces. But the beautiful thing is that its virtuosity doesn't get in the way of its profound poetry. As I mentioned once before, the orchestra's re-entrance after the piano cadenza in the first movement sounds to me like an aural depiction of a vast star nursery ... cosmic birth.

All best,
Fred

I can remember sitting outside the music room at home when my sister played it .
She was 12 at the time. She didnt like us looking at her play.
I can remember thinking why cant i do that??
She had the gift from the age of 2, could hear stuff on the radio and play it in five mins.
Stu

Wow ... seriously? Playing that concerto at age 12 is an extremely rare accomplishment. I'm impressed. Did she ever perform it with an orchestra?

Best,
Fred

Please forgive me for commenting here, but to me the very homogeneity which can be found in the string quartet, and also is the preserve of the harpsichord [in Bach's music] is one of the greatest aids to removing the distraction of sonic colour from the sound. Sound is not for me music, but merely the carrier. Sometimes [as in Mozart Piano Concertos] the contrast of colour in the scoring is so well characterised that is does not undermine the music, but essentially sonic colour in music is for me a sugaring of the pill, an easement, and an intellectual sleight of hand. Sound-excitement over content in the harmonic and melodic sense.

A music box, well regulated could reveal the genius of Bach's counterpoint [if not as well as a great harpsichordist as Walcha, but better than any piano performance ever could], and for me at least the genius of Beethoven and Haydn in the string quartet repertoire is that neither composer often attempted to add colour to the music via the very scoring - a few rare effects apart.

For me the inclusion of sonic colour to music is the same as varnish on a nice wooden table. Keeps the surface clean, but invariably a distraction from the underlying content - changing the focus of view towards the very beautified surface and away from the integrity and emotional strength of below the surface structure which is a vastly more rewarding aspect over time. IMO of course.

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Please forgive me for commenting here, but to me the very homogeneity of the string quartet, and also of the harpsichord [in Bach's music] is one of the greatest aids to removing the distraction of sonic colour from the sound.

I am very much a fan of the sonic color in all music, Bach included. I do not consider it a distraction, but rather a fundamental part of the music.

Your tastes are extreme George, but to each his own, even me.

quote:

I am very much a fan of the sonic color in all music, Bach included. I do not consider it a distraction, but rather a fundamental part of the music.

But was sonic colouration Bach's intention - at least when he set his works for the harpsichord, and given that he did not anticipate the historically later habit to adjust registration during the music - the organ works?

As a matter of opinion, I suspect that the inevitable result of the choices [of intrument selected] must indicate not.

Of course Bach understood the effects of instrumental colouring of music as indicated by the fact that his arranegements of his concertos for violin, and winds for harpsichord involve frequent complete recasting of the music in key, rhythm, and occasionally harmonic progression to suit the new sonic medium, but in the case of the harpsichord had he wanted to include more sonic colouration he could have written music for the Pian e forte, which he definately did not! The instrument was known to him, and as you pointed out he even facilitated the sale of one Pian e forte to someone else!

ATB from George

George, in my world view, instrumental color is a primary facet of every performance of any music.

It's always there, and I expect the performer to exploit it to the fullest.

I think Bach's intentions were to have his music played, and he knew instrumental color would always be a part of that.

The performer, composer and listener all provide input to the performance, and each has an equally important role to play.

Gave another listen to this, unfocused.

I just listened and noted what track I was on. Tracks 11 and 12 drew my attention. Two different reasons for this :

1 - The Contrabassoon solo is wonderful.

2 - The Forte passages are marred, because the woodwinds must play too loudly. Before you say anything George, the brasses are sitting with their horns in their laps in these Forte passages. The woodwinds sound strained in the big climaxes.

Now being a Naimie, I should seek out the new bit of equipment that might remedy this.

Not so.

Ravel should have scored the brasses in the Forte passages. Brasses are for the Forte passages.

His orchestration is flawed. Or the performers have to sit back and decide if the ceiling needs to be lowered.

I could live with lowered.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
George, in my world view, instrumental color is a primary facet of every performance of any music.

It's always there, and I expect the performer to exploit it to the fullest.

I think Bach's intentions were to have his music played, and he knew instrumental color would always be a part of that.

The performer, composer and listener all provide input to the performance, and each has an equally important role to play.

I agree. and the harpsichord is simply full of contrast both dynamic and colouristic. Not with the contrast control turned to 11 out of 10, but naturally and geuinely contrasted for all that.

The contrasts that a player like Walcha manages with the harpsichord and organ in Bach's music are measured and decisive.

I would not want to hear Debussy, Chopin, or Beethoven played on the harpsichord anymore than I would want to hear Bach played on a/any piano, if the music can be heard from a great harpsichordist! Busoni/Bach is an exception ...!

The musical demands the composer makes absolutely dictate the choice of intrument!

ATB from George

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
The musical demands the composer makes absolutely dictate the choice of intrument!

ATB from George

This is the exact point on which we disagree.

The performer makes that choice.

As evidence of my claim, I offer the entire catalog of recorded music.

quote:

A music box, well regulated could reveal the genius of Bach's counterpoint [if not as well as a great harpsichordist as Walcha, but better than any piano performance ever could],

George, this must be one of the most provocative claims you've ever made on this forum - which is saying a lot .

Needless to say, I disagree. I don't really understand why you present it as a stark choice between either sonic colour or underlying structure. Why not relax, and enjoy both?

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:
Why not relax, and enjoy both?

Here lie the real question.

I received a gift from an old friend/old teacher the other day:

It's a CD from the Warsaw Chopin Competition. It contains most of the highlights of the winner - Rafal Blechacz. Some mazurkas, polonaises, the b-minor sonata, a couple of nocturnes - you get the picture.

He is fantastic. The jury were toting him to be the 'next' Zimerman. Although that is a rather strange comment as they are both quite different, it was a complement nonetheless.

So, if any of you come across anything from Rafal Blechacz, take a listen.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:

So, if any of you come across anything from Rafal Blechacz, take a listen.

Took a quick look on Amazon, and ordered the complete Chopin Preludes by Blechacz.

Thanks for the heads up, Dan :-)

Is that the CD with two Nocturnes at the end?

If so, it's great! I've got that very CD. It is a thoroughly refreshing listen!

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Carney:
Is that the CD with two Nocturnes at the end?

If so, it's great! I've got that very CD. It is a thoroughly refreshing listen!

That's the one.

Blechacz is superb--I also recommend his DG recording of Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven sonatas. I also have a three disc set of his polish competition recordings, which include a wonderful live performance of the E Minor Concerto. Another young wonderful Chopin player is the Italian pianist Pietro de Maria, who is about half way through recording Chopin's complete works for Italian Decca. Unfortunately these recordings, as far as I can tell, are only available in Italy. I am lucky that I go there for a couple of weeks every year and have picked up a couple each of the last three years. Check out his website for further information about his recordings. Zimmerman is a great artist and you can't go wrong with any of his recordings (I even enjoy his much maligned Brahms First with Rattle). I do resent, however, the political diatribes he likes to dish out to a captive audience at his live concerts. I pay to hear his music, not his politics, of which I could care less.

quote:

Originally posted by Oldnslow:
Zimmerman is a great artist and you can't go wrong with any of his recordings (I even enjoy his much maligned Brahms First with Rattle). I do resent, however, the political diatribes he likes to dish out to a captive audience at his live concerts. I pay to hear his music, not his politics, of which I could care less.

I always want to stand up and shout "Hey, lecture us on Beethoven or Stravinsky, the rest of it doesn't matter here!" But that wouldn't be polite :-)

I'm only going to say this once.

Oldnslow, Krystian has my utmost respect for what he said to his American audiences. He is from a country that was torn apart by a greater power. He is, as we all are, witnessing history being repeated.

He took the opportunity to address many people, and let's face it, it takes a lot of balls to do such a thing.

You don't pay to just 'hear his music' - he is communicating his most inner and sensitive thoughts to you, pouring his heart out, and you criticise him for having a side-note. Leave it out !!

Er, if I recall correctly, it was first the Nazis, and then the Russians, who tore Poland apart, not the Americans. If he so despises the U.S., and wants to stand upon his convictions he certainly can decide not to tour (and make money as well as music) in America. For instance, Artur Rubenstein, perhaps the greatest of Polish pianists, would never play in Germany after the war because of what the Nazis had done to destroy his homeland. By the way, I would feel the same way if an American spouted off his political views in a recital. The audience does not pay to hear a goddamn political lecture.

Not the best topic for Christmas Eve.

Look who's talking ...

Oldnslow,

I was not suggesting that the Americans tore Poland apart. However, what the US is doing around the globe is unnecessary. He understands the devastation of being invaded, and that's what the US has been doing for the last umpteen years ! Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, who's next? Iran, Pakistan???? Quite a list!

End of!

Anyway, each to their own. It certainly does not detract from his outstanding pianistic, and musical ability.

Let's get the thread back on track.

Mike, are you familiar with the Chopin Etudes? There is a superb Pollini on DG.

I think I have the Pollini Chopin Etudes on an LP. Let me check ...

I am not here to argue politics (and in fact I may even agree with much of what you say), I merely point out his opinion shouldn't be foisted on the audience in a recital. If the recital were advertised as Zimerman playing some piano and having a political discussion with the audience, that would be fine and dandy, and folks could decide if they wanted to attend such a town hall meeting with a little piano playing. His behavior left a sour taste in this concert goer, spoiling some magnificant Bach and Beethoven.

Oldnslow,

I wish you a Merry Xmas. Let's leave this side-topic now. I accept your point.

It turns out I don't have any recordings of the Chopin Etudes. Time to order again. Pollini it is.