Turntable Advice

The tracking force was set to 15 on a little dial thingy (told you I don't know much about turntables!) on the back of the arm. I've just upped it to 20 and the bass is better by a surprising amount (enough that I expect I won't be getting to by bed early tonight while I re-play some stuff). I'll listen to it like that for a while and see what I think. I'll also dig out the instructions for the turntable and see what the recomendated range is.

Cheers
Steve

Ortofon's recommended tracking force range for the OM10 is 1.25 - 1.75 g (12.5 - 17.5 mN in your Project arms units of measure) with the recommended value being 1.5 g (15 mN).

Going slightly over the recommended maximum isn't unheard of for best sound quality, however one runs the risk of groove/stylus/cantilever damage, and/or having the cartridge body collapse onto the playing surface, by going too far over.

I would suggest that you first attempt to rebalance the arm using the steps outlined in the manual, and then experiment with tracking forces between 15 and 17.5 mN. If you do not get a sound that appeals to you, then consider selling it off, and invest in a turntable/arm/cartridge combination that does.

BTW, my CD3-5 delivers greater percieved bass quantity than my turntable, yet my turntable sounds better balanced/more real.

Craig

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Originally posted by Craig Best:
Steve,

Ortofon's recommended tracking force range for the OM10 is 1.25 - 1.75 g (12.5 - 17.5 mN in your Project arms units of measure) with the recommended value being 1.5 g (15 mN).

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I checked the manual and you're right, the recommendation is for 15nM, which is what I had it set to originally.

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Going slightly over the recommended maximum isn't unheard of for best sound quality, however one runs the risk of groove/stylus/cantilever damage, and/or having the cartridge body collapse onto the playing surface, by going too far over.

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I had a look while it was playing and it looked ok to me.

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I would suggest that you first attempt to rebalance the arm using the steps outlined in the manual, and then experiment with tracking forces between 15 and 17.5 mN. If you do not get a sound that appeals to you, then consider selling it off, and invest in a turntable/arm/cartridge combination that does.

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That sounds like good advice, especially as I've moved the turntable a few times since it was originally setup.

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BTW, my CD3-5 delivers greater percieved bass quantity than my turntable, yet my turntable sounds better balanced/more real.

Craig

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My turntable sounds quite decent except for the very lightweight bass. It's not something I recall from when it was new, although in those days it was only competing with an Arcam Alpha 1 CD player in an Arcam/Mission system. Back then the turntable easily outperformed the CD player and I expect the problem now is either a much better system showing up its weaknesses or (as you suggested) a setup problem. Upping the tracking force to 20nM made the turntable sound a lot better but I think what I'll do is re-do the setup and try 17.5nM.

Cheers
Steve

While you're at it, the arm height/vta can affect balance. In general, lowering the base of the arm gives a warmer sound, raising it gives a brighter sound.

--Eri

Tell them I sent you!

John

1) New cartridge (high output Ortofon MC perhaps), Ringmat, maybe a seperate turntable support.

2) Punt the Project deck and get a better quality 2nd hand table (there's an interesting Project 6 with Sumiko Bluepoint cartridge on Ebay at the moment).

Hmm - not sure. Tweaking is more fun than replacing but I'm pretty sure option 2 has the better long term potential. I think I know someone who might be interested in my old deck so I might see if I can sell it quickly.

I ran extensive (ok - not that extensive!) tests with tracking weight (played side A of Goodbye Mr MacKenzies Fish Heads and Tails 3 times at 15nM, 17.5nM and 20nM). Bass definitely sounded better at 20nM but from the looks of the stylus and cartridge that's probably the absolute top limit that is viable. It's also possible that while the bass is better at 20nM the musicality is worse so I think I'll go back to 17.5nM for now.

Testing now with The Cures Boys Don't Cry album - haven't listed to it for ages and it sounds good. For 10 points can anyone tell me the very politically incorrect (given the current world situation) title of the first track of side 2?

Cheers
Steve

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Options at the moment are:
1) New cartridge (high output Ortofon MC perhaps), Ringmat, maybe a seperate turntable support.

2) Punt the Project deck and get a better quality 2nd hand table

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WRT, the suggestion above regarding arm height, this is an important variable and, as indicated, lowering the back of the arm can bring the bass up a bit. Is the Project's arm height adjustable? If not, a slightly thicker mat, such as Regas felt, can achieve the same end. BTW, a Ringmat will not make a silk purse out of a sows ear, but may also be used to alter vertical tracking angle (at a much higher price).

FWIW, I would go with a combination of your options 1 & 2. Specifically I would invest in a seperate turntable support and a new turntable. I would think that a Rega P3 with Rega Elys or Super Elys cartridge would give you the sound that you seem to be looking for, and at the same time offer basically fool proof setup, as the cartridge virtually self aligns itself via the third mounting screw during installation (which a Rega dealer should do anyway).

I would go for a dedicated turntable support right away, whether you replace the Project or not. The cheapest, albeit somewhat DIY option, is to use an Ikea Lack side table, an audio accessory steal at $Cdn 14.95! I have recently been using one of these in my spare room system under a Rega. With a set of downward facing spikes, the Lack will outperform a lot of purpose built stands such as Sound Organisation, Target and many others. A wall shelf is another approach which may appeal more, especially if floor space and/or wonky floors are a problem.

Neither of these support options will solve you bass quantity problem, but they surely will help improve the quality of notes at all frequencies.

Craig

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For 10 points can anyone tell me the very politically incorrect (given the current world situation) title of the first track of side 2?

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"Killing an Arab" based on a scene from Albert Camus's "The Stranger"?

I'm considering a Linn Axis turntable at present - what else should I be looking for used up to say £200 including arm?

Regards
Steve

It appears that you have been busy experimenting with various phono cartridges. I hope that you are not spending too much of your new turntable budget 'putting the cart before the horse' as it were. I wasted many of my early audiophile years (and dollars) on this tail chasing exercise.

I have to agree with Mr. Pig here in that, if you can stretch to it, an LP12 would be the best investment, especially at UK used prices. However if you must cap it at £200, a Planar 3 or Linn Axis would offer very good VFM. Of the two, the Axis is the more warmer sounding, but needs careful placement to keep low notes in tune (ie. a dedicated support is a must with this deck).

Are you sure that your 32-5 has the correct MM phono boards? I would think that a working 32-5/SNAPS should better a 92R/SNAPS. Selling one of the NACs off should easily make up the difference between the £200 that you have budgeted for a new deck and the price of a nice used LP12/Ittok.

Looking at things from a system perspective, I would sell off the Project and the 92R and buy a used LP12/Ittok with the proceeds. During this transition I would get the 32-5/SNAPS/140 serviced at Naim (possibly including 72 boards for the 32-5 and definitely including dual railing the SNAPS if it is a later model).

When all is said and done, I believe that you will wonder what it was about the CD3-5 that appealed to you in the first place.

Craig

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Originally posted by Mr Pig:
The Linn Axis is not bad Steve. More refined than a Planer 3 but it doesn’t have the bass weight and solidity of it's big brother. How much is it?

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Not sure yet - probably sub £200.

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Personally I think you should consider saving up for a nice, pe-cirkus LP12. I say pe-cirkus because those decks have more powerful bass than cirkus ones and say an Ittok/Valhalla one should be obtainable for around 350-400 pounds. You can pick up lesser LP12's for as little as £300 and even these will still trounce a Rega 3.

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The bass weight isn't that big a deal for me - the original issue was that my Project deck was very bass light (something that has at least been partially cured by upping the tracking weight).

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I know it's more than you were planning on spending but it'll last you a lifetime and you'll always be able to get bits for it. Why not get rid of the Project and keep your eyes open for a while, you never know :0)

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I've been keeping my eyes open (on Ebay etc) for a reasonably priced LP12 but so far they've all ended up too expensive. I'll keep looking anyway.

Regards
Steve

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Originally posted by Craig Best:
Steve,

It appears that you have been busy experimenting with various phono cartridges.

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Not really - just picked up a used Ortofon MC-1 turbo used on Ebay for a bit of fun.

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I hope that you are not spending too much of your new turntable budget 'putting the cart before the horse' as it were. I wasted many of my early audiophile years (and dollars) on this tail chasing exercise.

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My turntable budget isn't affected. It's set completely by how much SWMBO will let me get away with and she never notices the odd bit here and there on cables etc! Just as well she doesn read this...

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Are you sure that your 32-5 has the correct MM phono boards? I would think that a working 32-5/SNAPS should better a 92R/SNAPS. Selling one of the NACs off should easily make up the difference between the £200 that you have budgeted for a new deck and the price of a nice used LP12/Ittok.

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I'm not sure what boards the 32.5 (or the 92R for that matter) have in them. I think they probably are the correct ones as their isn't that much difference in sound quality between my 92R and 32.5 although the 92R just edges it on phono. Servicing the 32.5 perhaps would give it the edge but to be honest they both sound pretty good. I probably won't sell on of my pre-amps until I get a 72 though as they're all currently in use - my 92R is part of the living room home cinema setup, the 32.5 is in my bedroom system and I'm currently using the 22 in my main system.

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When all is said and done, I believe that you will wonder what it was about the CD3-5 that appealed to you in the first place.

Craig

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Currently I've got well over 1000CD's perhaps the majority of which I do listen to on occasion and perhaps 300 or so LP's of which perhaps only 50 I'd actually listen to these days. Some of those 50 I also have on CD. I do still buy the occasional LP but for convenience and availability reasons CD is likely to remain my main source for the forseable future, especially as we have CD capability in 6 rooms and a car and turntable capability in only one room!

Cheers
Steve
(anyone got a cheap LP12 they're selling?)

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Originally posted by Darryl:
I have seen LP12's on http://www.loot.com priced from £150 for a Linn LP12 Basik!

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I've emailed the chap but not yet received a reply - I expect it's probably gone anyway. All the other LP12's are £250 or more.

Regards
Steve

I also noticed that the deck recommends a tracking force in the range 1.25-1.75g and the cartridge recommends 2g. Which should I go with? I'll be getting a cartridge balance soon (from Ebay) but I don't have it yet.

Regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

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Originally posted by Mr Pig:
Remember Steve that anytime you want to pop in you'll be more than welcome. I live right in-between Glasgow and Edinburg so drop me a whiz-e if you want to say hello :0)

Mr Pig

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I might get around to doing that soon (especially as I work in Livingston) as I'd be interested to hear how your system sounds compares to mine.

I've been listening to vinyl all evening so far - Hipsway, Talking Heads, Ruby Blue, Puccini's Tosca. Just about to start on a 5-LP Bruce Springsteen Live box set.

Regards
Steve

Regards
Steve

Cheers
Steve