Gustav Mahler

Barbirolli in the Fifth on EMI [HMV], and you will find this on LPs as second hand if you are patient. Worth keeping your eyes peeled for that.

And two phenomenal performances of the Ninth. Barbirolli again [also on EMI] and may be found in second hand Classics for Pleasure LP re-releases, or the original full price EMI [HMV] LP issues. And Bruno Walter in 1938 with the VPO, in an amazing live recording done as the last conceret before Austria fell to the Nazi's. This will be found on CD alone I would think as the original 78s are hardly a modern proposition, but EMI's References Serie issue is in a wonderful transfer, but beware that they are some very poor transfers of this as bootlegs. If interested in a really great example of historic Mahler performance seek out the EMI CD transfer.

Mahler is by no means my favourite composer, but these performance have all been with me in the past, and should give great pleasure to any budding Mahlerian!

Consider also, Bruno Walter's Decca recording from Vienna in 1950[?] of Das Lied von der Erde, "Song of the Earth" with Julius Patzak and our very own Kathleen Ferrier. This is magical. The recording is not up the standards of the 1938 EMI Ninth from Walter, or particularly the Babirolli recordings, where the technologies employed allowed for a good capture of the massive sounds involved!

The Barbirolli recordings have all been issued several times on CDs as well, if you prefer that in such broadly dynamic music.

ATB from George

I don’t know if I’d categorize Mahler as especially difficult, especially in light of what came after him. I personally love most of his symphonies, and continue to add to my collection regularly. (The Gielen cycle is en route to right now, and I have more Levine to try!)

As to some specific recordings, I rather fancy:

1 – Walter (CBS/Sony); Boulez (DG); Kubelik (DG)

2 –Bernstein (DG); MTT (SFS Media); Klemperer (Studio recording, EMI)

3 – Salonen (Sony); Kubelik (DG)

4 – Abravanel (Vanguard); MTT (SFS Media); Boulez (DG)

5 – Levine (RCA – out of print, but worth the search); Kubelik (DG)

6 – Bernstein (DG); MTT (SFS Media); Abbado (BPO, DG); Eschenbach (Ondine - for sonics alone!)

7 – Barenboim (Warner); Boulez (DG); Bertini (EMI)

8 – Nagano (Harmonia Mundi); Wit (Naxos)

9 – Walter (CBS/Sony); Abbado (BPO, DG); MTT (SFS Media); Barenboim (Warner)

10 – Chailly (Decca)

Das Lied von der Erde – Bernstein (DG)



--

I don't necessarily find Mahler's symphonies difficult any more but I used to, and I can understand those who still do. Let's not forget that only half a century ago his works were seldom performed. Most were unfamiliar to concert goers in general . It is with the LP era that Mahler started to become a household name. This is as it should be, for his works transfer brilliantly to the recorded media. Self referencing, highly personal and emotional I find the Mahler works ill suited to the concert going experience and ideally suited to the casual yet intimate surroundings of the home environment.

Speaking of my own experience, I can recall too many times when I have been bored by Mahler performances in the concert hall. This may be because Mahler's music is not for the everyday. It requires a sense of occasion and an interpreter totally committed to bringing it off. To often the concert hall experience of Mahler has made him seem bombastic, self pitying, maudlin and even boring, in short, everything his contemporary critics have found them to be. Then there's the problem of the symphonies length, isn't there. Captive audiences find it hard to sitt still for more than an hour with any level of keen concentration. A Haydn or Beethoven work is easy fare by comparison.


Noyes

I wouldn't have said Mahler's symphonies are difficult listening, and certainly their popularity in the concert hall and on disc these days would bear them out. Indeed, I think it's fascinating how quickly Mahler has become so mainstream. It was only about 40 years ago that Bernstein recorded the first complete survey of the symphonies. His championship of the composer is a big factor in this (though so too others such as Walter).

I would rather rashly suggest I have as many Mahler recordings as anyone on these boards with twelve complete cycles, various half cycles (for example Barbirolli didn't live to record the 8th). The 6th is most represented in my library with some 24 recordings (though I suspect one of those, which I taped on BBC4 last night will soon be deleted and another is on the pile to go to the charity shop).

You may, therefore, wonder why I haven't posted a little more on the subject, the reason being I'm in the processed, begun some two or three years ago, of writing an exhaustive write-up of my collection, but don't want to post any until I've finished, and I've not had the time to make much progress yet.


In the meantime, I would offer some starting points. Avoid boxed sets. The range of Mahler is such few (if any) offer an excellent account of everything. If one of those threads offers my favourites it may well be a couple of years old now and I think I will have listened to a fair bit of Mahler since then. The first, as you seem to have found, is an excellent place to start. I like Mariss Jansons' recording best at present. Actually, he has two, a more recent one with the Concertgebouw that is pretty fine (and always a wonderfully rich sounding orchestra for Mahler) but the older, recording with the Oslo Philharmonic is more impressive (and coupled with a good 9th too). Other favourites are Bernstein (with the Concertgebouw on DG, not his earlier New York recording). Mackerras with the Liverpool Philharmonic at budget price is good (as is his 5th and, if you can track it down, his 6th with the BBC Philharmonic that was on the cover of the BBC Music Magazine a couple of years ago). Giulini's account with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra is also excellent.

After than the second or the 5th are probably good places to explore. Klemperer with Kathleen Ferrier and the Concertgebouw is very special indeed, but hard to come by and in poor mono sound from around 1950. Rattle's early 80s recording with the CBSO and Janet Baker is also excellent as is Walter's New York recording and Bernstein with the LSO (this may not be available on CD anymore but is on DVD and also features Janet Baker - the only disadvantage of the DVD is the producer often seems more concerned with the visuals of Ely cathedral than the musicians). For the 5th I like Rattle (in Berlin) and the Mackerras mentioned above. Bernstein's Vienna account on DG takes a rather slow view but is justly highly regarded.

I would have said the 4th is pretty accessible too, though it is very difficult to do well - in the wrong hands the rather understated can be anticlimactic and the choice of singer is also very important. Szell in Cleveland is very good, as is Daniel Harding's recent account with the Mahler Chamber Orchestra.

I'd also recommend Kathleen Ferrier singing Kindertotenlieder (the rather depressing songs for the death of children, either with Walter or Klemperer). Indeed, Ferrier doing anything Mahler is special. I was recently overjoyed to get my hands on a recording of the 3rd symphony that featured her. Sadly the sound quality is somewhat worse that dire, and I think Testament are having a laugh pricing it at over £20.


regards, Tam

(not yet added to my good classical threads list is this discussion with Noyes about Bernstein.

Hi guys,

Maybe I misinterpreted the fact of why Mahler is not recommended for Classical newbies. I just got hold of a copy of the 9th - Barbirolli - Berliner Philhamonia 1964 (is that one of the ones you mention George) and a 5th - Wyn Morris - Symphonia of London and these are more like what I expected from Mahler, big, dynamic, emotional stuff. Interestingly the liner notes on the 5th do say that the first 4 Symphonies are different to the next 5 and I can see that it goes on to mention that Mahler was on a constant search for an identity which I imagine explains the differences in his earlier work to his latter. I with look out for copies of the pieces mentioned so thanks for the suggestions. Also whats everyones view on the unfinished but subsequently finished 10th symphony is it really a Mahler symphony?



Dean..

Dear Dean,

That's the one, and lovely it is. It is easy to forget that Herbert von Karajan was converted to producing Mahler concerts by Sir John's regular visits to Berlin to conduct Mahler. The orchestra adored "Glorious John" and reckoned him as the equal of Furtwangler, which from them is some compliment!

I don't really get Mahler, but I love to see people getting to know and enjoy the music. I remember going to a song recital of Des Knaben Wunderhorn songs with a lovely soprano accompanied with piano, and I was entranced!

I guess it is that I do not like a very large orchestra as much as anything else ...

Look out the Fith from Barbirolli as well, this time recorded in London, but still marvelous.

ATB from George

Barbirolli made several visits to Berlin to conduct Mahler and a number of them were captured on radio and have been released on Testament, the 2nd, 3rd and 6th can be heard this way. But be warned, they are patchy, the Berlin Phil was not in those days the Mahler machine it is today and was unused to the scores. To some extent it shows. There are plenty who would argue that they are sub-par readings. But they are, like all the rest of Barbirolli's Mahler (and, indeed, much of the rest of his conducting), wonderfully heartfelt.

Barbirolli came to Mahler very late in his career and was preparing the 8th symphony (the only one he didn't perform) at the time of his death). Recordings of all the others (except Das Lied von der Erde) can be found. The first is good, as is the 3rd with the Halle. The 5th with the Philharmonia is rightly regarded as a classic, as is the 6th (it is also coupled with a fine reading of Strauss's Heldenleben). On an interesting side note, there is some debate about the order of the movements in the 6th, Barbirolli (like an increasing number of conductors these days, and Mahler himself) played it andante-scherzo but for years producers at EMI thinking they knew better, reversed this. The 9th you have acquired is also good.

You mention the unfinished 10th. In my view it is best left unfinished. A key part of the genius of Mahler is, in my view, his ear for orchestration. Listen to the opening of the first symphony, a very simple theme is passed repeatedly through different sections of the orchestra - something that becomes even clearer when one has the score. None of his completionists (and I have several versions) can come close to matching this. Daniel Harding has recently recorded a halfway decent recording with the Vienna Phil. I think I might light the work, but I expect to be Mahler, and to me it just doesn't feel up to scratch. Explore the 9 finished symphonies, and indeed Das Lied von der Erde first. Indeed, Das Lied is effectively the 10th symphony anyway. He wrote it after the 9th but renamed it through superstition at the number of composers who died after writing 9 (e.g. Beethoven - Schubert and Bruckner are also normally included but this requires more creative counting).


regards, Tam

I guess some composers may Mahler this could be due to the sheer length on top of complexities (thematic, orchestral), perhaps explains why this is not often a recommendation to newbies. However, the more important factor is whether one has a affinity to the composer, and from what I read this is probbaly your case.

My University trained music graduate friend has absolutely no patience for Mahler or Brahms. However, he could analyse and appreciate it professionally more than I ever could. The only thing I have over him is that I do enjoy both these 'difficult' composers. On this I think we and the professionals or experienced are on an equal footing.

Well, not really all of Mahler. The "Abscheid" from Das Lied von der Erde is one of my favorite movements, with an almost unstoppable tread to doom that transfix me everything Ilisten to it. I also agree that his music is not one I would causally dip into, I need to plan for it and it is a special occassion each time. I have the Klemperer, Bernstein and Horenstein version of this work.

And I think plenty of time is also important to loving this composer. I couldn't find the courage to start on his other works now cos they take quite some time to settle in and it is rather daunting even to contemplate that. das Lied I absorb during my college days when i have more free time to go over stuff. I still enjoy exploring his songs though, "Song of a wayfarer" by Furtwangler may be well worth the curioisty and also the intensity of the reading.

CD was made for Mahler. In LP days you'd often have to buy doubles but most fit easily on to a single CD. Try the most accessible first - you can pick them up cheaply. Klemperer's 2nd then, if you like it buy Rattle's double.
Barbirolli's 9th then, as a contrast, Karajan on DG. If you've got the system to handle it, Tennstedt's 8th is gobsmacking and can be bought cheap as chips in a box with his equally outstanding 3rd.

Sym 1: LSO/Solti (Decca) and BavarianRSO/Kubelik (DG)

Sym 2: LSO/Solti (Decca) or VPO/Kaplan (DG)

Sym 4: ChicagoSO/Szell (CBS/Sony) (unlikely ever to be bettered)

Sym 5: VPO/Bernstein (DG) or PhilO/Barbirolli (EMI)

Sym 6: BPO/Karajan (DG)

Sym 8: ChicagoSO/Solti (Decca) (no one else comes close)

SYM 9: VPO/Walter (EMI) and BPO/Barbirolli (EMI) and Concertgebouw/Haitink (Philips) and BPO/Karajan (DG) (many recordings are obligatory for this greatest symphony of the C20)


Das Lied: VPO/Walter (Decca) or PhilO/Klemperer (EMI) or Concertgebow/Haitink (Philips)

I had to google Kaplan - never heard of him. We live and learn - thanks. I agree with you about the Solti 8 (except Tennstedt does come close but I forgive your exuberance). Got it on vinyl but last I heard it was deleted.
Didn't you think Solti's 2 was a bit fast; and that bloody big organ at the end was a pig's arse of an overdub. Discuss.

I know a lot of people rate Tennstedt's Mahler highly, and the 8th in particularly, but I've made several attempts at his set and it's always left me pretty cold. The Solti 8th is excellent though. However, my absolute preference in that work comes from Sinopoli with the Philharmonia. Rattle manages an good (if slightly oddly recorded) reading of the second movement but the first lacks something in weight, which is interesting as that's normally the bit that has less trouble.

regards, Tam

Blimey, Tam. Just read your earlier contributions on this thread. 24 versions of the 6th? - respect. How do you find time to go to work? (or write on this forum?)
I think I agree about the 10th but don't you think a cheap set's worth it just to hear that bloody big drum whacked (you can take the boy out of the estate but you can't take the estate out of the boy).
Do we need a Shostakovich thread? 15 symphonies with Haitink an acknowledged mainstream representative (as hypothesis)?

quote:

Originally posted by graham55:
Sym 1: LSO/Solti (Decca) and BavarianRSO/Kubelik (DG)

Sym 2: LSO/Solti (Decca) or VPO/Kaplan (DG)

Sym 4: ChicagoSO/Szell (CBS/Sony) (unlikely ever to be bettered)

Sym 5: VPO/Bernstein (DG) or PhilO/Barbirolli (EMI)

Sym 6: BPO/Karajan (DG)

Sym 8: ChicagoSO/Solti (Decca) (no one else comes close)

SYM 9: VPO/Walter (EMI) and BPO/Barbirolli (EMI) and Concertgebouw/Haitink (Philips) and BPO/Karajan (DG) (many recordings are obligatory for this greatest symphony of the C20)


Das Lied: VPO/Walter (Decca) or PhilO/Klemperer (EMI) or Concertgebow/Haitink (Philips)

I would agree with those selections and add a couple of additional fourth symphony readings - Maazel and Karajan. The former having the bonus of Kathleen Battle's angelic finale, imo.

Steve

quote:

Originally posted by madasafish:
Blimey, Tam. Just read your earlier contributions on this thread. 24 versions of the 6th? - respect. How do you find time to go to work? (or write on this forum?)
I think I agree about the 10th but don't you think a cheap set's worth it just to hear that bloody big drum whacked (you can take the boy out of the estate but you can't take the estate out of the boy).
Do we need a Shostakovich thread? 15 symphonies with Haitink an acknowledged mainstream representative (as hypothesis)?

That's a fair point about 24. And, no, I don't need that many. I'm going to have a good prune of them (and indeed the rest of my Mahler, once I've finished writing the my thread). I only have 12 on my ipod. Actually, I have just realised that the actually number might be 25 since I hadn't counted the Gergiev recording I downloaded recently (though I don't think I'll be keeping that). I do find time for work, sadly it is often listening and other commitments that get pushed aside (which is why, for most of the last couple of months I have barely posted here and only recently resumed - I also run a venue at the Edinburgh festival in my 'spare' time).

As to the 10th, I think it is worth having, and I have several recordings. But as a curiosity more than anything else, and I wouldn't recommend it for someone starting out.


I wouldn't be averse to a Shostakovich thread. I too have the set you mention with Haitink, though I think that there are better ones around. I had it suggested to me that it was worth hearing the repertoire with Russian players, and having since investing in the Kondrashin set (recorded in Moscow), I can see the point. It might be a little intense and overly driven for some but it is rather special.


regards, Tam

Hi guys,

I've decided to start at Mahlers 1st symphony and work through the symphonies chronologically buying a couple of suggestions each. So I bought one of Todds suggestions Bruno Walter - CSO - Sony Classics which comes with a second disc containing the 2nd symphony and Leider Eines Fahrenden Gesellen. This is a fantastic performance and I liked it from the first moment it starting playing. I also bought a Valery Gergiev - LSO performance which is I think the one Tam has mentioned if it is a recent recording, 2008, the jury is out on this as first impressions are that the pace seems to constrained and it doesn't quite flow right for me, but as ever I will persevere with it, whereas the Walton just seems to flow at the right pace, is this a result of the Gergiev being recorded at the Barbican and its renowned bad acoustics?



Dean..

With regard to Gergiev, I don't think the Barbican acoustic is to blame, though it does constrict things a little, never the less LSO Live has managed some sublime recordings there (some of the Sibelius, for example, or the Jansons Mahler 6th). I've heard a fair bit of the Gergiev cycle as much has been played on Radio 3 as well. I don't like what I've heard. He conducts Mahler like a man late for an appointment, he never slows up to let the music breath. It's a shame, because I have heard him do some stunning things (some Prokofiev in Edinburgh this summer was particularly impressive).

You will find the sound quality on neither the Gergiev of the Walter is ideal and if that is a big deal for you Jansons (either Oslo or Concertgebouw) and Bernstein (Concertgebouw) will be particularly strong bets.


regards, Tam

Note to self - tread carefully here!

My views have changed over the years, and in this of all music may still change. I started listening to Mahler as Tennstedt began his cycle, and his 1st remains my favourite.

His 5th and 8th are superb, but edged out by Barbirolli and Solti respectively. His 7th is matched only by Rattle. Klemperer is my favourite for the 2nd - either EMI or Decca. 4th - either Szell or Klemperer. 6th - Barbirolli or maybe Rattle. 9th - Barbirolli, Klemperer or Tennstedt. 3rd is the only one where I feel the need for better performance. Tennstedt's falls short of the Festival Hall concert which was magnificent, and Levine falls prey to a weird recording.

Karajan and Abbado both leave me cold despite wonderful playing and sound.

I managed to tape the Amsterdam Mahler Festival some years ago - must find the cassettes and listen again, I remember some great performances from Haitink, Chailly and Rattle.

Actually, here is a composer who I think can be interpreted very differently, yet still satisfy.
Knowing the Tennstedt and Barbirolli recordings well, I heard Arvid Janssons conduct the Halle in the 5th. All was well until he took the final rondo in a more sprightly fashion than my references - and I felt betrayed! More fool me - I failed to fully appreciate what I think in retrospect was a superb performance, just because I thought I knew the "best" way to play this movement. So, in Mahler even more than Beethoven, I now believe in multiple choices.

I have read of a Tennstedt 5th recorded live, supposedly better than the studio recording. Can anybody advise?

I haven't heard Tennstedt's live 5th, but the LPO label also has a live 1st which I have heard, and which I prefer to his studio account. Then again, I don't know how much stock you should put in my view - since I don't overly care for his seventh, or Rattle's for that matter. Indeed, Tennstedt himself said he didn't like the finale of the 7th, which always slightly puzzled me as to why he recorded it.

But I do agree that Mahler can be appreciated played in different ways, though I'm not sure how different that is to other composers.

regards, Tam

Tam,

Whose 7th would you go for? For me it only clicked hearing Rattle in live broadcasts - then Tennstedt's made sense when I went back and listened again.

As for being appreciated played in different ways, I guess that's more me having multiple favourites that I'm happy to rotate, with other music I normally have a definitive preferred recording. Sorry that I didn't express that more clearly.

I see what you mean - I tend to have multiple favourites in most things!

In the seventh I like Abbado, particularly his Berlin reading which gives a stunning account of the finale. I also like Solti and Bernstein's earlier New York account.

One of the best readings I heard was from Alsop and the Bournemouth symphony in the live concert that introduced the work to me. It really gave the feeling of a long journey through the night, which to me is what makes sense of the work.


regards, Tam

As far as Tennstedt's seventh goes, I'd just add that up until the end of the 4th movement it is one of the very finest accounts I've heard. My problem is that he doesn't bring off the finale. It's a very complicated movement and there is a lot going on, but he seems to get a bit lost in the soup of all this. But then that may be more to some others' tastes. Contrast, however, with the clarity and brightness Abbado brings it.

regards, Tam

Well I'm not as educated about the differences, sort of like fine wines. I just Knew of Mahler when I was starting out really listening to classical at 40 as long winded. Now with age, and having heard a number of them I"m transfixed. Any time I can hear a concert piece I go. I love his melodies, they transform from child songs, to marches, to wistful, to profound. Always evolving tho I only have Abbado on vinyl doing the 2nd. Last night I was listening to Kindertottenleider by D. Janet Baker, fabulous.

He can really touch my heart with beauty.

Tam,

Thanks - I'll seek out Abbado's Berlin 7th. Was it ever on vinyl?

quote:

Originally posted by Wolf2:
Well I'm not as educated about the differences, sort of like fine wines. I just Knew of Mahler when I was starting out really listening to classical at 40 as long winded. Now with age, and having heard a number of them I"m transfixed. Any time I can hear a concert piece I go. I love his melodies, they transform from child songs, to marches, to wistful, to profound. Always evolving tho I only have Abbado on vinyl doing the 2nd. Last night I was listening to Kindertottenleider by D. Janet Baker, fabulous.

He can really touch my heart with beauty.

Hi Wolf2,

I know, some German words are difficult, even for me .

If you want to spell it correctly, it is "Kindertotenlieder".

Lied = song, Kinder = children and Tote = dead

Best wishes

Manfred