Gustav Mahler
Posted by: Whizzkid on 08 September 2008
Hi all,
After plowing through many Beethoven interpretations over the past few months and enjoying the Music very much I fancied trying out a new composer and while at the proms Duncan (djc) suggested listening to Mahlers 1st symphony. A few weeks later I was lucky to be offered to borrow a few LP's from a friends small classical collection, I found a copy of Mahlers 1st The Israel Philharmonic - Paul Kletzki. Now I don't know what I was expecting but I gathered from reading the forum that Mahler was a difficult composer for the classical newbie but after a couple of plays I found that I was liking the music (an eastern feel was the first real surprise!) so I picked up a couple of other Mahler symphonies 2 copies of the 4th's an LPO - Hornstein and a Chicago Symphony - Reiner & an LSO - Bernstein 8th. I liked both especially the forth movement of the 4th when the soprano starts singing, pure magic.
Now checking through Tam's classical roundup (I've copied Tams personal fav's) thread I see that Mahler seems to be a bit neglected on this forum is it because of his "difficult" nature or does he not quite reach the heights of the other great composers for some? Please let me know what performances I should be looking out for old or modern recordings it doesn't matter.
TIA
Dean..
After plowing through many Beethoven interpretations over the past few months and enjoying the Music very much I fancied trying out a new composer and while at the proms Duncan (djc) suggested listening to Mahlers 1st symphony. A few weeks later I was lucky to be offered to borrow a few LP's from a friends small classical collection, I found a copy of Mahlers 1st The Israel Philharmonic - Paul Kletzki. Now I don't know what I was expecting but I gathered from reading the forum that Mahler was a difficult composer for the classical newbie but after a couple of plays I found that I was liking the music (an eastern feel was the first real surprise!) so I picked up a couple of other Mahler symphonies 2 copies of the 4th's an LPO - Hornstein and a Chicago Symphony - Reiner & an LSO - Bernstein 8th. I liked both especially the forth movement of the 4th when the soprano starts singing, pure magic.
Now checking through Tam's classical roundup (I've copied Tams personal fav's) thread I see that Mahler seems to be a bit neglected on this forum is it because of his "difficult" nature or does he not quite reach the heights of the other great composers for some? Please let me know what performances I should be looking out for old or modern recordings it doesn't matter.
TIA
Dean..
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by u5227470736789439
I think Manni's post exactly sums up my difficulty with Mahler, and that stems from a fascination - almost amounting to the morbid - with doom, death, and desstructive angst.
Never mind the great length of these works [in the main], it is the depressing impression that I struggle with.
As a really almost Polar contrast the works of Haydn touch on tragedy, but always manage to lead to a conclusion that both avoids trite platitudes, and does console in its certainty that life is very definately something to look forward given the right attitude.
This probably explains my general preference for the music of the Baroque and Classical periods over most music from the later Romantic period. Tragedy is much easier to find some optimism from within the literature. Music can really disturb me when it takes an unresolved tragic course. There are no human characters of a tragic or tragic/heroic ilk in abstract music, which one can empathise with, only a raising or lowering of one's emotional state. This aligment with a tragic character in literature is what marks out the profound difference compared with music. Opera is more like literatue in this respect, but is hardly abstract music as such.
Almost everyone I know has a different response, and it is entirely reasonable that this is so!
ATB from George
Never mind the great length of these works [in the main], it is the depressing impression that I struggle with.
As a really almost Polar contrast the works of Haydn touch on tragedy, but always manage to lead to a conclusion that both avoids trite platitudes, and does console in its certainty that life is very definately something to look forward given the right attitude.
This probably explains my general preference for the music of the Baroque and Classical periods over most music from the later Romantic period. Tragedy is much easier to find some optimism from within the literature. Music can really disturb me when it takes an unresolved tragic course. There are no human characters of a tragic or tragic/heroic ilk in abstract music, which one can empathise with, only a raising or lowering of one's emotional state. This aligment with a tragic character in literature is what marks out the profound difference compared with music. Opera is more like literatue in this respect, but is hardly abstract music as such.
Almost everyone I know has a different response, and it is entirely reasonable that this is so!
ATB from George
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by Noye's Fludde
I think I see your point, George, but you could just as easily see death, doom and gloom in Beethoven. The 'Marcia Funumbre' of the Eroica, parts of the the Missa Solemnis and a great deal of the Late Quartets.
For me, the problem with Mahler is it's episodic nature and the fact that we are hearing the angst not so much of the world in general or 'mankind' as the angst of the individual (Mahler himself, or, if we project ourselves into Mahler's psyche, we ourselves). This is why I think M's music is difficult to bring off and the exaggerated hysteria of some conductors (ie Solti) can be very repellent to some(me for example).
The nice thing about music is that we can feel these morbid emotions without really feeling them, so that music like Mahlers' can become cathartic.
Noyes
For me, the problem with Mahler is it's episodic nature and the fact that we are hearing the angst not so much of the world in general or 'mankind' as the angst of the individual (Mahler himself, or, if we project ourselves into Mahler's psyche, we ourselves). This is why I think M's music is difficult to bring off and the exaggerated hysteria of some conductors (ie Solti) can be very repellent to some(me for example).
The nice thing about music is that we can feel these morbid emotions without really feeling them, so that music like Mahlers' can become cathartic.
Noyes
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noyes,
As I wrote above: Almost everyone I know has a different response, and it is entirely reasonable that this is so!
I think Beethoven, like his mentor Haydn, certainly contends deeply with tragedy in music, though he always resolves the issue. Not quite true as there is one exception with the Coriolan Overture, which certainly does not resolve at all, but disintegrates into total despair, but this is a unique example in Beethoven's works, I think.
Can there be a more achingly sad symphonic movement than the Funeral March from the Eroica? Some may find examples, but for me this is the most remorselessly tragic in all orchestral music, but the movement is the second and is followed by a gamesome Scherzo, which though hardly light-hearted is not in any sense grim or down-heartening. Then to round off we are given a Finale containing one of the most wonderful and joyful sets of variations Beethoven wrote for full orchestra, so the net effect of the symphony for me is one of tragedy contained, and largely resolved, however far into despair the music moves in the first two movements.
Similarly the Missa Solemnis certainly is not a joyful piece in the way Haydn's Mass setting usually are [and which Mendelsohnn described as, "scandalous gaiety!"], but essentially the music rounds off in mildly consoling fashion, though not with the certainty of optimistic vision found in the works of Bach or Haydn in the style.
I can quite see how some people will find the music of Mahler cathartic. I would guess that this explains why it has become very well liked and no longer such a rarity in the concert hall. Haydn was more popular than Mahler in the early twentieth century, and their positions seem to have exchanged somewhat.
I don't think this is simply a case of what is fashionable. The cycle is too long for that, but perhaps an indication that culturally many people now enjoy this catharsis, which you mention that can come Mahler, rather than the simpler [at least on the surface] certainties found in Haydn's music.
There is more to it than that, but I think this is a sign of a general cultural shift, or at least may possibly be reasonably thought to be.
Do you think that might be a sensible explanation?
ATB from George
As I wrote above: Almost everyone I know has a different response, and it is entirely reasonable that this is so!
I think Beethoven, like his mentor Haydn, certainly contends deeply with tragedy in music, though he always resolves the issue. Not quite true as there is one exception with the Coriolan Overture, which certainly does not resolve at all, but disintegrates into total despair, but this is a unique example in Beethoven's works, I think.
Can there be a more achingly sad symphonic movement than the Funeral March from the Eroica? Some may find examples, but for me this is the most remorselessly tragic in all orchestral music, but the movement is the second and is followed by a gamesome Scherzo, which though hardly light-hearted is not in any sense grim or down-heartening. Then to round off we are given a Finale containing one of the most wonderful and joyful sets of variations Beethoven wrote for full orchestra, so the net effect of the symphony for me is one of tragedy contained, and largely resolved, however far into despair the music moves in the first two movements.
Similarly the Missa Solemnis certainly is not a joyful piece in the way Haydn's Mass setting usually are [and which Mendelsohnn described as, "scandalous gaiety!"], but essentially the music rounds off in mildly consoling fashion, though not with the certainty of optimistic vision found in the works of Bach or Haydn in the style.
I can quite see how some people will find the music of Mahler cathartic. I would guess that this explains why it has become very well liked and no longer such a rarity in the concert hall. Haydn was more popular than Mahler in the early twentieth century, and their positions seem to have exchanged somewhat.
I don't think this is simply a case of what is fashionable. The cycle is too long for that, but perhaps an indication that culturally many people now enjoy this catharsis, which you mention that can come Mahler, rather than the simpler [at least on the surface] certainties found in Haydn's music.
There is more to it than that, but I think this is a sign of a general cultural shift, or at least may possibly be reasonably thought to be.
Do you think that might be a sensible explanation?
ATB from George
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by Noye's Fludde
George,
Your point about the Eroica, which after all ends triumphantly, is well taken.
Not to derail this thread off too much, but don't you feel that the difference between the great classical and baroque artists such as Haydn and Bach is that where as Mahler puts man at the centre of the universe, the old masters put God at the centre, hence, the move from faith, serenity and certainty to the more common day angst and hysteria of modern composers ? The one is more comforting the other perhaps more "accurate" in the light of present day realities. I believe you've said as much in your thread on Music and Architecture, did you not ?
Not to offend anyone. I am not saying one viewpoint is more valid than the other.
Noyes
Your point about the Eroica, which after all ends triumphantly, is well taken.
Not to derail this thread off too much, but don't you feel that the difference between the great classical and baroque artists such as Haydn and Bach is that where as Mahler puts man at the centre of the universe, the old masters put God at the centre, hence, the move from faith, serenity and certainty to the more common day angst and hysteria of modern composers ? The one is more comforting the other perhaps more "accurate" in the light of present day realities. I believe you've said as much in your thread on Music and Architecture, did you not ?
Not to offend anyone. I am not saying one viewpoint is more valid than the other.
Noyes
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by Tam
quote:Originally posted by dn1:
Tam,
Thanks - I'll seek out Abbado's Berlin 7th. Was it ever on vinyl?
It's quite a recent disc so I wouldn't have thought so. However, I suspect that his earlier Chicago account was (some rate it higher than the Berlin version but I must confess I wouldn't like to as it's been a while since I listened). If you do want vinyl, Bernstein in NY on CBS is, in my view, well worth seeking out.
regards, Tam
Posted on: 14 September 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noyes,
Exactly the case I believe. Bach and Haydn had a certain faith and they certainly were not merely playing at being devout. From this certainty came a great security which allowed them to compose consoling music in spite of addressing the tragic and sad.
Mahler was in relative terms a modern man, who did not have this rock-like faith to help him through life's difficulties.
In no way is this a judgement or a comment, but in every way I find mself in tune with Haydn and Bach above all including Beethoven! I think I may share something of their philosophy if that does not sound ridiculous. I hope it does not.
Now we had better leave these Mahlerians to their fun.
I love the Knaben Wunderhorn. I like some Mahler a lot!
ATB from George
Exactly the case I believe. Bach and Haydn had a certain faith and they certainly were not merely playing at being devout. From this certainty came a great security which allowed them to compose consoling music in spite of addressing the tragic and sad.
Mahler was in relative terms a modern man, who did not have this rock-like faith to help him through life's difficulties.
In no way is this a judgement or a comment, but in every way I find mself in tune with Haydn and Bach above all including Beethoven! I think I may share something of their philosophy if that does not sound ridiculous. I hope it does not.
Now we had better leave these Mahlerians to their fun.
I love the Knaben Wunderhorn. I like some Mahler a lot!
ATB from George
Posted on: 31 October 2008 by dn1
quote:Karajan and Abbado both leave me cold despite wonderful playing and sound.
I'm eating my words about Abbado. Tam's recommendation of Abbado's Berlin 7th is spot on, the best rondo-finale I've yet heard by some margin. Overall, for me, it pips Tennstedt by being a bit darker and more menacing. Tennstedt's rondo-finale is a very sudden emergence into daylight, and the tension largely evaporates. Abbado seems to contrive a much more gradual slow dawn, maintaining the tension.
Thanks, Tam, for the recommendation.
Posted on: 31 October 2008 by u5227470736789439
Dear Noyes,
I do not think that the acapolypic vison of man's fate has ever changed, but rather that the sublime faithful [Christian] vision of Bach and hadn [in particular, but one may include Schubert and Bruckner epecially] meant that they could compose consoling, optimistic music, written without either apology, or simplistic triteness, that inherently raises the level of contentment of the listener, even if he does not share the faith of the compsiers concerned.
Essentially, IMHO, music of this sort has a moral value above the average. I do believe in a morallity in music. For example I consider the works of Carl Orff, to be acts of barbarism.
ATB from George
I do not think that the acapolypic vison of man's fate has ever changed, but rather that the sublime faithful [Christian] vision of Bach and hadn [in particular, but one may include Schubert and Bruckner epecially] meant that they could compose consoling, optimistic music, written without either apology, or simplistic triteness, that inherently raises the level of contentment of the listener, even if he does not share the faith of the compsiers concerned.
Essentially, IMHO, music of this sort has a moral value above the average. I do believe in a morallity in music. For example I consider the works of Carl Orff, to be acts of barbarism.
ATB from George
Posted on: 31 October 2008 by mikeeschman
Barbirolli was my first mahler, the 5th with the Philharmonia - i think on angel? wonderful.
you can get a dvd of the mahler 5th with chicago that is the final performance of Adolph Herseth, the principle trumpet with chicago since the early fifties, and probably the best first trumpet ever in any orchestra anywhere.
this dvd is highly recommended.
also love boulez and bernstein for mahler.
bernstein's 1st with vienna and third with the new york phil are the best i've heard. There's another nice trumpet solo in the 3rd, and john smith of the new york phil plays it the best i've heard on the bernstein new york phil 3rd.
but lately, i shy away from mahler because it's so bombastic. i can only take so many climaxes per hour these days :-)
you can get a dvd of the mahler 5th with chicago that is the final performance of Adolph Herseth, the principle trumpet with chicago since the early fifties, and probably the best first trumpet ever in any orchestra anywhere.
this dvd is highly recommended.
also love boulez and bernstein for mahler.
bernstein's 1st with vienna and third with the new york phil are the best i've heard. There's another nice trumpet solo in the 3rd, and john smith of the new york phil plays it the best i've heard on the bernstein new york phil 3rd.
but lately, i shy away from mahler because it's so bombastic. i can only take so many climaxes per hour these days :-)