Death of J*** Revisited
Posted by: mikeeschman on 10 January 2010
Over the last several months, I have gotten a crash course in European jazz, listened to a good bit of American Jazz I haven't heard before, and surveyed my own extensive jazz library, hundreds of albums collected over forty years.
I am ready to say goodbye to jazz, which has lost its way.
Jazz depends on the moment, more so than anything, excepting dance. It no longer lives in the moment.
All the thrills are old thrills, memories.
I will not be debating this. It is funeral for me, and I don't want to do anything about it, other than coping with swallowing it.
But I hope to read what you have to say.
Thanks for all the info and materials leading up to this.
Fun ride :-)
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by droodzilla
Hello Mike. I'm sorry for your loss
Jazz is very much alive and well in my house. It accounts for roughly 3/4 of what I buy, and I have to discipline myself not to splurge even more on it. Mostly modern European jazz, which seems to have unbounded potential right now. Having said that, tonight I'm listening to Jelly Roll Morton, and loving it.
Good luck with your musical adventures anyway. I'm really interested to hear what you make of the Berio. I haven't heard his work myself, but I'm reliably informed it's pretty scary stuff.
Regards
Nigel
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
Dear Mike,
I always struggled with Jazz. I believe that it is indeed in the moment, which rather tends to work less when with the repitition possible with recordings.
On the other hand in the live setting it still works for me, as the frission of the moment seems to win over the actual music for me and I then am enthralled by it. No recording of Jazz has ever drawn me though.
ATB from George
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by droodzilla:
Hello Mike. I'm sorry for your loss
Jazz is very much alive and well in my house. It accounts for roughly 3/4 of what I buy, and I have to discipline myself not to splurge even more on it. Mostly modern European jazz, which seems to have unbounded potential right now. Having said that, tonight I'm listening to Jelly Roll Morton, and loving it.
Good luck with your musical adventures anyway. I'm really interested to hear what you make of the Berio. I haven't heard his work myself, but I'm reliably informed it's pretty scary stuff.
Regards
Nigel
Its Nono's "Como una ola de fuerza y luz" on DG that Mike has decided to purchase, not the Berio. It IS very scary stuff and I recommend it to any Naim user to test his/her system out. I'm afraid it might very well be a NO NO to most of you in musical terms but it's challenging, frightening,wonderful aural experience.Played it on a fellow forum members £75,000 system and thought the room was going to explode as well as the tweeters disintegrate. A recording not for the faint-hearted.
Sister xx
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by Sister E.
Hi Stu,
I've never posted a pic and looking at the permissions I don't think I have that facility here. If you google the title it should take you to the Amazon UK link for it. It is VERY demanding music and the closing ten minutes or so will push your system to the limits.
Sister xx
Posted on: 10 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by BigH47
Not for me I think they must have had the music upside down.
Life's too short to waste on this.
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by roger poll
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
Not for me I think they must have had the music upside down.
Life's too short to waste on this.
That made me smile Howard.
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by droodzilla
quote:
Its Nono's "Como una ola de fuerza y luz" on DG that Mike has decided to purchase, not the Berio. It IS very scary stuff and I recommend it to any Naim user to test his/her system out. I'm afraid it might very well be a NO NO to most of you in musical terms but it's challenging, frightening,wonderful aural experience.Played it on a fellow forum members £75,000 system and thought the room was going to explode as well as the tweeters disintegrate. A recording not for the faint-hearted.
Sister xx
Thanks for the clarification. Had a quick listen to the samples on Amazon, and didn't think it sounded *that* bad, although it's probably not something I'd buy. I remember hearing some Scelsi on the radio a few months, and liking it. He's on my list of composers to investigate.
Nigel
Posted on: 11 January 2010 by Sister E.
I notice some members have been listening to extracts on Amazon but I think this is a work which really needs a decent system with plenty of headroom to make half sense of it.Even some of the user reviews on Amazon acknowledge that. It's a pretty wonderful seventies analogue recording as well.
Sister xx
Posted on: 13 January 2010 by Lee Henley
On the subject of Jazz, I have quite a few of the classic American jazz albums but have never looked at the European stuff, so can anyone reccomend me some please.
Thanks in advance
Lee
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by Lontano
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by Lontano
Lee - here is a write up I did for another forum member with some links to reviews etc on European Jazz. This may help you.
E.S.T. - the Esbjorn Svensson Trio
The biggest group in European jazz of the last 10 years. Sadly, Esbjorn was killed in a diving accident last year and there is now a big gap at the top of the European Jazz scene but plenty of good acts vying to fill it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esbjörn_Svensson_TrioThis link gives lots of information and lots of onward links to reviews and videos towards the bottom.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=4744From Gagarins Point of View was their breakthrough album. The title track is simple and one of my favourite pieces of muisc.
The other album for you to try is Seven days of Falling
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14783http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14531Tomasz Stanko
A comparative elder statesman of the European scene.
His new album Dark Eyes. Not yet released in the US, this has been making end of year best of lists in Europe.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=34605This album is highly regarded - Lontano.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22984http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22782But at the near-venerable age of 64, Stanko has recorded a major modern masterpiece: a perfect exploration of the hinterland between freedom and stucture, and the finest exposition ever of his achingly soulful balladry. It is as important an album in Stanko's trajectory as Kind Of Blue, In A Silent Way andBitches Brew were to Miles Davis. It is, really, that deep and that beautiful.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22920 Jan Garbarek
One of Europe's major artists for some 40 years now. This album was one of the first jazz albums I liked. It is not really jazz though, owing as much to Norwegian folk as it does to jazz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_GarbarekHe has done some very successful classical cross over albums with the Hilliard Ensemble - Officium for instance that might appeal to you.
I have included his album I Took Up The Runes.
Tord Gustavsen
A relative newcomer to the scene, he has become a very big artist in the European scene. This is very tuneful, melodic but atmospheric music. This is an artist where the silences are as important as the notes. There is so much space and beauty in this music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tord_Gustavsenhttp://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=15050He has done three trio albums and here are two of them - The Ground and Being There.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=17057http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=25940http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=25853Lars Danielsson
This album was released in 2009 and is beautiful, one of my favourites of the year. He is a Danish bass player, not a huge star, but known to those in the know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Danielsson The album is called Tarantella
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=32013Enrico Rava
Italy's premier jazz musician. Easy Living - just very lovely jazz trumpet - simple and elegant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Ravahttp://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=13346Benedikt Jahnel
Not well known but this album has proved popular with a few forum members, myself included. It is called Modular Concepts and is first rate piano jazz trio.
http://www.benejahnel.de/main_en.htmlPosted on: 14 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Luigi Nono: Como una ola de fuerza y luz, for Soprano, Piano, Orchestra & Magnetic Tape (1971-72) / ...sofferte onde serene... For Piano & Magnetic Tape (1976) / Contrapunto dialettico alla mente, for Magnetic Tape (1968) - Maurizio Pollini / Claudio Abbado [IMPORT]
Sorry Sister E, this one is not for me.
As you promised, it makes the stereo work for a living. Problem is I look for beauty in music, and found none here.
Thanks for opening my ears to something new, which is always exciting.
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by Oldnslow
Mike--before you write off jazz completely, give a listen to "Historicity" by the pianist Vijay Iyer and his trio (ACT)......very very impressive and stimulating.
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by Sister E.
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Luigi Nono: Como una ola de fuerza y luz, for Soprano, Piano, Orchestra & Magnetic Tape (1971-72) / ...sofferte onde serene... For Piano & Magnetic Tape (1976) / Contrapunto dialettico alla mente, for Magnetic Tape (1968) - Maurizio Pollini / Claudio Abbado [IMPORT]
Sorry Sister E, this one is not for me.
As you promised, it makes the stereo work for a living. Problem is I look for beauty in music, and found none here.
Thanks for opening my ears to something new, which is always exciting.
Sorry you didn't enjoy it, Mike.I didn't really expect you to but at least you experienced something different. I look to be stimulated by music, whether it is beautiful(whatever that is),dissonant, shocking or downright vulgar. I guess that's where we are different,
Sister xx
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by fred simon
quote:
Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I am ready to say goodbye to jazz, which has lost its way.
...
I will not be debating this.
This seems uncharacteristically closed-minded and reductive for you, Mike. Not to mention a bit of sticking your head in the sand ... "I will not be debating this." And making such pronouncements on the basis of an admitted "a crash course in European jazz" seems rash, don't you think?
I won't debate your tastes ... if it doesn't groove you that's yours to own. But in no way has jazz lost its way, certainly no more so than Western classical music ... I mean, how much classical music of the last 50 years are you listening to? Has classical music also lost its way?
Music transcends just about everything: genre, era, culture, maybe even species! And musical magic, in any genre, can happen just about anywhere: night club, recording studio, concert hall, backyard picnic, etc. Obviously, lots of great jazz has been made on gigs, but some of the greatest of all jazz is also to be found on studio recordings ... Miles'
Kind of Blue, Trane's
A Love Supreme, Jarrett's
Facing You, just to name a very few.
There's absolutely nothing inherent about the recording studio that precludes great music, of any kind, being made, and certainly nothing about a live gig that inherently guarantees great music being made ... lord knows there have been, and will continue to be, innumerable lame jazz gigs.
When you really get down to it,
all great musical performances, no matter the genre, depend on the moment ... in classical no less so than jazz; it's all about the infinite micro-details and choices that are managed in the moment. The idea that jazz is somehow more so dependent on the moment is an over-romanticized myth, one of many romantic myths dubiously linked to jazz.
Again, if it doesn't float your boat, so be it. But to extrapolate, therefore, that the fault is with the music is to go one step too far, betraying a lack of sufficiently critical listening and comprehension. Believe me, there's still plenty of juice and vitality and life-affirming human musical expression in jazz.
All best,
Fred
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Fred, it doesn't float my boat anymore, and that's all on me.
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by u5227470736789439
fred simon wrote:
quote:
But in no way has jazz lost its way, certainly no more so than Western classical music ... I mean, how much classical music of the last 50 years are you listening to? Has classical music also lost its way?
I doubt that Jazz has lost its way anything like as much as classical, which aguably has been in serious trouble [in terms of having a general audience] for longer than that, and not just in my opinion ... though it is my opinion as well!
ATB from George
[ ... who struggles like heck with recorded Jazz and loves it live].
Posted on: 14 January 2010 by Oldnslow
Western classical music in my humble opinion was done in by Schoenberg and his followers, from Boulez to Babbitt and beyond---it essentially lost generations of composers who would have been ostracized for not following the pack -- the pack that produced music that 99.9% of the listening public rejected, and rightly so. It would have been interesting to see what would have developed if the twelve tone brigade hadn't taken control of things. When you think of the musical giants that tonality produced and compare them to the midgets that followed, it is pretty sad. Even a great composer like Stravinsky fell prey to the disease (and very few people listen to his later music either). Jazz at least has had a consistent progression in its short life, though I would readily agree there hasn't been much of interest of late, and most of the European players don't impress me much either, many of them sounding like pale imitations of classical musicians playing at improvision--- much of it doesn't swing and without that key ingredient, jazz doesn't have much to offer. Even today, Louis Armstrong simply towers over anyone in the jazz field (though he always has, really). Rant over, let the flaming begin.
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by mikeeschman
Oldnslow, as nice a summary of the situation as would fit in a single paragraph. The saving grace is that there is loads of classical music I don't know yet that is pre-Schoenberg.
Right now I'm devoting lots of attention to Chopin, Debussy and early Stravinsky. Soon I will be adding Schubert, Haydn and Mozart. And then Bach never seems to wear himself out.
I'm going slower and studying each piece, so this should last quite a while.
Posted on: 15 January 2010 by Lee Henley
quote:
Originally posted by Lontano:
Lee - here is a write up I did for another forum member with some links to reviews etc on European Jazz. This may help you.
E.S.T. - the Esbjorn Svensson Trio
The biggest group in European jazz of the last 10 years. Sadly, Esbjorn was killed in a diving accident last year and there is now a big gap at the top of the European Jazz scene but plenty of good acts vying to fill it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esbjörn_Svensson_TrioThis link gives lots of information and lots of onward links to reviews and videos towards the bottom.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=4744From Gagarins Point of View was their breakthrough album. The title track is simple and one of my favourite pieces of muisc.
The other album for you to try is Seven days of Falling
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14783http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=14531Tomasz Stanko
A comparative elder statesman of the European scene.
His new album Dark Eyes. Not yet released in the US, this has been making end of year best of lists in Europe.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=34605This album is highly regarded - Lontano.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22984http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22782But at the near-venerable age of 64, Stanko has recorded a major modern masterpiece: a perfect exploration of the hinterland between freedom and stucture, and the finest exposition ever of his achingly soulful balladry. It is as important an album in Stanko's trajectory as Kind Of Blue, In A Silent Way andBitches Brew were to Miles Davis. It is, really, that deep and that beautiful.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=22920 Jan Garbarek
One of Europe's major artists for some 40 years now. This album was one of the first jazz albums I liked. It is not really jazz though, owing as much to Norwegian folk as it does to jazz.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jan_GarbarekHe has done some very successful classical cross over albums with the Hilliard Ensemble - Officium for instance that might appeal to you.
I have included his album I Took Up The Runes.
Tord Gustavsen
A relative newcomer to the scene, he has become a very big artist in the European scene. This is very tuneful, melodic but atmospheric music. This is an artist where the silences are as important as the notes. There is so much space and beauty in this music.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tord_Gustavsenhttp://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/musician.php?id=15050He has done three trio albums and here are two of them - The Ground and Being There.
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=17057http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=25940http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=25853Lars Danielsson
This album was released in 2009 and is beautiful, one of my favourites of the year. He is a Danish bass player, not a huge star, but known to those in the know.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Danielsson The album is called Tarantella
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=32013Enrico Rava
Italy's premier jazz musician. Easy Living - just very lovely jazz trumpet - simple and elegant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enrico_Ravahttp://www.allaboutjazz.com/php/article.php?id=13346Benedikt Jahnel
Not well known but this album has proved popular with a few forum members, myself included. It is called Modular Concepts and is first rate piano jazz trio.
http://www.benejahnel.de/main_en.html
Thanks to Lontano for some pointers to get me started, looks like I am going to be a bit busy over the next few weeks. I have just managed to get hold of a Penguin guide to Jazz hopefully these will be in their
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by alainbil
IMHO all Jazz musicians that came out during the last thirsty years are second class when compared to giants like Charles Parker, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Billy Holliday, to name a few of my favorites.
A deeper cause of concern is that current jazz is overwhelmingly only copy of jazz that was played years ago. Think of all the very pretty girls singing in a way that was popular before their parents where born.
If you consider that Jazz itself if roughly ninety year old, this is a strong case for decadence, if not death.
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by droodzilla
quote:
IMHO all Jazz musicians that came out during the last thirsty years are second class when compared to giants like Charles Parker, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Billy Holliday, to name a few of my favorites.
Are you the ghost of Philip Larkin?
Seriously, if you haven't already done so, try anything in Lontano's post above. Or Louis Sclavis, or the the fine German piano trio [em], led by Michael Wollny, or anything featuring John Taylor, or Kenny Wheeler. Hard to say who will be remembered in 30 years' time, but that's the nature of reputation and critical concensus. I think we can already say that Keith Jarrett will join the pantheon. His 30+ years of work is huge and various, and has unquestionably pushed the boundaries of solo piano improvisation. My head spins with jazz's possibilities right now, it always bemuses me when someone declares it dead.
Regards
Nigel
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by Lontano
quote:
Originally posted by alainbil:
IMHO all Jazz musicians that came out during the last thirsty years are second class when compared to giants like Charles Parker, Duke Ellington, John Coltrane, Ornette Coleman, Billy Holliday, to name a few of my favorites.
A deeper cause of concern is that current jazz is overwhelmingly only copy of jazz that was played years ago. Think of all the very pretty girls singing in a way that was popular before their parents where born.
If you consider that Jazz itself if roughly ninety year old, this is a strong case for decadence, if not death.
I would listen to anything in my list in preference to any of the "great" names you have quoted. I like the old dead jazz but I much prefer the recent music called jazz (although I often prefer to give it a different name).
To be honest I think the issue here is the word "jazz". We are comparing music made 50 years ago versus new music and it is the same as comparing Elvis Presley to U2 or Beethoven with Philip Glass. We all have our flavours and the music is not really comparable. The genres are very broad and house many different styles within.
The fact that you think current jazz is a copy of old jazz makes me think that you have not explored in any detail much of what is on offer these days. A copy it is not and IMHO, there is a European contingent pushing the music forward and taking over from the US, where the music is most definitely stuck in a rut with the likes of Wynton Marsalis etc.
It is a shame you can no longer experience E.S.T. live in concert - one of the most amazing live experiences I have ever had - almost religious.
Posted on: 16 January 2010 by alainbil
[/QUOTE]
Are you the ghost of Philip Larkin?
Seriously, if you haven't already done so, try anything in Lontano's post above. Or Louis Sclavis, or the the fine German piano trio [em], led by Michael Wollny, or anything featuring John Taylor, or Kenny Wheeler. Hard to say who will be remembered in 30 years' time, but that's the nature of reputation and critical concensus. I think we can already say that Keith Jarrett will join the pantheon. His 30+ years of work is huge and various, and has unquestionably pushed the boundaries of solo piano improvisation. My head spins with jazz's possibilities right now, it always bemuses me when someone declares it dead.
Regards
Nigel[/QUOTE]
Keith Jarett was born in 1944.
I do love his music, but he is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans (born in 1929)
Kenny Wheeler (born 1930) was excellent with Braxton (born in 1945). Yes indeed
