Death of J*** Revisited

European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different. The harmonic motion is very slow, with some E.S.T. tunes staying on the I chord for well over a minute. I can not think of any other music that does that. The level of technical performance is not very good.

This is not music for people who admire Charlie Parker :-)

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different. The harmonic motion is very slow, with some E.S.T. tunes staying on the I chord for well over a minute. I can not think of any other music that does that. The level of technical performance is not very good.

This is not music for people who admire Charlie Parker :-)

I am inclined to agree with your second comment.

Your first comment would seem to be a circular argument:

Jazz is dead - this music is alive - therefore this music is not jazz.

Presumably music must grow and change to be alive, therefore jazz that is thriving is very likely to be music that has changed since the early days of jazz.

I would also take exception to your initial premise that jazz and dance music are purely music of the moment, or perhaps more so live music. I find both jazz and dance, particularly electronic dance music (techno) thrive as recorded music, a significant amount of my music collection is from these genres and is played regularly. Similarly improvised music does not need to be experienced live.

For those who think that US styles of jazz died in the 60's, you may wish to try musicians such as Tommy Chase - London hard bop 1980's, Kenny Kirkland - US pianist 80's-90's and Kenny Garrett 80's- 90's US sax player.

Toshinori Kondo in a different style, is an excellent Japanese trumpet player, especially his excellent collaboration with DJ Krush 'Ki-Oku'.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different. The harmonic motion is very slow, with some E.S.T. tunes staying on the I chord for well over a minute. I can not think of any other music that does that. The level of technical performance is not very good.

This is not music for people who admire Charlie Parker :-)

Mike I think you that you have a narrow view of music. The fact that if you like Charlie Parker you cannot like something else to me is pretty bewildering. Anyway each to their own but I hope I never get to the point where I can only like one genre. (and then only like some of that genre).

Lontano, just poking about to see what I will listen to for the next decade. Sometimes I get a little over the edge. Sorry about that.

I enjoy very much having heard European Jazz thanks to you, and it will get another listen.

The classical is really grabbing me at the moment.

On these issues, I will try to just read for a while.

Thanks Mike. Happy Listening

quote:

Keith Jarett was born in 1944.
I do love his music, but he is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans (born in 1929)

Kenny Wheeler (born 1930) was excellent with Braxton (born in 1945). Yes indeed

Fair enough Alain, though I would still urge you to cast your net a little wider. The Louis SClavis Trio simply blew me away when I saw them in Cologne last year. Jarrett and Evans - I see influence, but I think Keith's done a bit more than follow in Bill's footsteps.

I never knew Wheeler played with Braxton - I'll check that out. On Braxton generally, I'm aware of his long career, but haven't heard much. Any recommendations?

Regards
Nigel

quote:

European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different.

It drives me nuts when Americans say this. Sorry Mike .

Jazz is still going tho I don't listen to the current stuff. I downloaded 2 short films on Jazz divas on Netflix last night. I feel an Amoeba visit coming on. Last time there I saw a whole bunch of Sarah Vaughn, I'm going to go back and raid it. I was looking for Peggy Lee and couldn't find her on vinyl.

I went in for Ella in Hollywood but that was sold out. ugh!

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:

I never knew Wheeler played with Braxton - I'll check that out. On Braxton generally, I'm aware of his long career, but haven't heard much. Any recommendations?

Regards
Nigel

I would recommand :
Live at the Moers Festival
New York fall 1974
Birth and Rebirth
Conference of the Birds (as a sidemen)

Alain

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
Fred, it doesn't float my boat anymore, and that's all on me.

Fine, but then why do you say that jazz has lost its way?

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:

I think we can already say that Keith Jarrett will join the pantheon. His 30+ years of work is huge and various, and has unquestionably pushed the boundaries of solo piano improvisation.

Actually, counting from his first sideman date with Art Blakey at the age of 21, Jarrett's career has now spanned almost 44 years.

I think Jarrett absolutely belongs in the pantheon, no question. And not just for his profound achievement in solo piano improvisation, but for the astounding breadth of accomplishment in so many areas ... as a sideman with Art Blakey, Miles Davis, Charles Lloyd, Freddie Hubbard, Paul Motian, Airto, Charlie Haden, Gary Peacock, and Kenny Wheeler; leading two incredible trios, one of which has lasted for over 25 years and must be considered one of the greatest trios in all of jazz history; leading two quartets, both of which must also be considered two of the best in jazz history; as a brilliant and singular composer of both jazz and classical music; and as a masterful classical pianist. You'd be hard pressed to name another jazz great who can claim that range.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by alainbil:

I do love [Jarrett's] music, but he is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans

With all due respect, this just isn't true, in more than one sense. First of all, Jarrett's direct influences also include Paul Bley, Ahmad Jamal, and Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand) every bit as much as Bill Evans.

More importantly, Jarrett's musical achievements (as briefly sketched in my post above) are vast, reaching well beyond the influence of Bill Evans or any of the others. Frankly, the idea that Jarrett "is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans" betrays an incomplete knowledge of Jarrett's accomplishments.

All best,
Fred

quote:

Originally posted by droodzilla:

quote:

European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different.

It drives me nuts when Americans say this. Sorry Mike .

Americans who know better don't say this. Sorry, Mike.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

European Jazz is not jazz at all, it's something completely different. The harmonic motion is very slow, with some E.S.T. tunes staying on the I chord for well over a minute. I can not think of any other music that does that. The level of technical performance is not very good.

This is not music for people who admire Charlie Parker :-)

Mike, I hope you'll take this as purely matter of fact, nothing personal. It may help to hear my words in your head in the voice of Marge Simpson.

Your knowledge of many aspects of classical music is unquestionable, but here you betray a limited understanding of jazz and related issues. European jazz is certainly jazz, if not for the most basic reason that European classical music is a crucial component of all jazz music. Beyond that, jazz is an ecumenical, big-umbrella music in its very definition, flowering in myriad directions and branches.

You may have heard a few pieces with relatively static harmonic movement, but to extrapolate that this represents European jazz in general is a mistake. On the one hand, there's an abundance of European jazz with just as much, and sometimes more, harmonic motion than any American jazz. On the other, there's an abundance of American jazz that explores relatively static harmonic schemes. Merely "staying on the 1 (root) chord for well over a minute" means nothing in itself ... it all depends on what is being said with and on that chord ... Miles Davis could certainly speak volumes on a single chord. So can Keith Jarrett, or Jan Garbarek.

You say that you "can not think of any other music that does that [staying on the 1 chord]" ... you've never heard any Indian classical music? Many kinds of Arabic music? Hell, what about Jimi Hendrix's Voodoo Child (until its refrain, at least), for that matter? Music that utilizes the drone or pedal tone is used in many cultures, including the very African cultures from which the other essential component of jazz was taken (the other being, as I said, European classical music).

Your criticism that "The level of technical performance is not very good" in European jazz is simply inaccurate, a premature conclusion at best. Just to take one of many examples, check out Italian pianist Stefano Bollani ... as technically accomplished as one could ever hope for, and, fortunately, always in service of the music. I could cite dozens of other equally technically proficient European jazz musicians.

Finally, the idea that "This is not music for people who admire Charlie Parker," emoticon or not, is woefully misguided. First of all, no one could more deeply love European jazz than I do, and I deeply admire Charlie Parker. As do so many of the European jazz musicians I love. As do nearly all of the great jazz musicians I personally know or am aware of, American, European, or otherwise. The ultimate irony, though, is that it's well known that Charlie Parker was hugely inspired and influenced by European classical music ... he was often quoted as saying that Stravinsky and Debussy were his favorites, but also loved Shostakovich, Beethoven, Bartok, Prokofiev, Hindemith and Ravel.

Truly sorry to pile on, Mike, but I'm afraid you really stepped in it on this one. (insert emoticon here)

All best,
Fred

Some good stuff there Fred I saw the Stefano Bollani Trio and Enrico Rava the other week. Bollani was mind boggling with his playing, like he had three hands - amazing man.

quote:

Originally posted by Lontano:

Some good stuff there Fred I saw the Stefano Bollani Trio and Enrico Rava the other week. Bollani was mind boggling with his playing, like he had three hands - amazing man.

Thanks, Lon.

The best pianists, jazz or classical, do have three hands ... the outer fingers of each hand make two, and the inner fingers of both hands comprise the third.

Fred

quote:

Originally posted by fred simon:

quote:

Originally posted by alainbil:

I do love [Jarrett's] music, but he is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans

With all due respect, this just isn't true, in more than one sense. First of all, Jarrett's direct influences also include Paul Bley, Ahmad Jamal, and Abdullah Ibrahim (Dollar Brand) every bit as much as Bill Evans.

More importantly, Jarrett's musical achievements (as briefly sketched in my post above) are vast, reaching well beyond the influence of Bill Evans or any of the others. Frankly, the idea that Jarrett "is mostly following the steps of Bill Evans" betrays an incomplete knowledge of Jarrett's accomplishments.

All best,
Fred

My original point was that Jazz in 2010 is very similar to Jazz in 1980, whereas innovations where constantly made between say 1950 and 1980 or between 1920 and 1950. Had we a discussion about the health of Jazz in 1950, I do not think you would have put forward names of musicians over 60.

I did own many records of Jarrett quartets, but in due respect Jarrett disbanded both quartets years ago, and sale wise Jarrett is a soloist and the man of the trio, not the man of the long gone (more innovative in my ears) quartets. This by a huge margin.

Cheers

Alain

Fred, as always your posts are very convincing, but it just doesn't jibe with what I hear.

Please point me to a Charlie Parker, T. Monk or Miles Davis tune that sits on the one chord for a minute and a half. As far as native musics go, and the use of a drone, this is not music I have any interest in, barring early European music.

The group I spent the most time with is E.S.T., which I am giving another listen to. Sorry, but it's just not my cup of tea. It seems devoid of invention.

One final note. I never enjoy bad intonation or iffy rhythm in any music.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
The group I spent the most time with is E.S.T., which I am giving another listen to. Sorry, but it's just not my cup of tea. It seems devoid of invention.

Mike - I am not going to spend much more time on this thread as I would rather be listening to some good jazz (in fact I am as I type).

However, one thing I cannot agree on at all is that E.S.T. is devoid of invention. They are regarded as a highly inventive group by critics and fans of European jazz alike me included. In fact I find them more inventive and innovative than many types of music (including lots of classical) and if you maybe knew more and understood more about modern jazz you might think the same although it is of course all opinion (and opinions vary).

What I do agree on is that this is not your cup of tea and that is fine and probably best left there.

Regards

PS I'll let Fred answer about Charlie Parker sitting on chords for 90 secs - I can't see that he said that. At the end of the day this is about emotional connection and some will connect emotionally with more types of music than others. I find I can connect with classical, E.S.T. and Charlie Parker and lots of other genres and groups. I am really like them all. I am really happy that that is the case for me

Lontano, just consider yourself a lucky guy :-)

I don't like the way turning my back on jazz is making me feel.

Will stick with it, and try to loosen up.

I could use some loosening up.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I could use some loosening up.

Good on you Mike

Mike

You should buy Brazilian Sketches by Jim Tomlinson. It's not cutting edge or demanding, but is a lovely record. Jim has a great sax tone, and is joined on some tracks by his partner Stacey Kent, who is my favourite jazz singer. As you may guess, it's playing as I type. I challenge you not to enjoy it!!

Nigel

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mikeeschman:
I don't like the way turning my back on jazz is making me feel.

Mike
There are countless great jazz albums out there to enjoy. If you enjoy jazz. Why do you feel you have to?

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:

I don't like the way turning my back on jazz is making me feel.

To be expected.

quote:

Will stick with it, and try to loosen up.

I could use some loosening up.

Always a good thing. We all could use some of that.


Have you heard this album?

Kenny Wheeler GNU HIGH




This masterpiece is a joyous, profound, beautiful, sublime, life-affirming work of music. And no drone tunes, quite the opposite ... harmonically exquisite.

The four musicians -- Kenny Wheeler - composer, flügelhorn, trumpet; Keith Jarrett - piano; Dave Holland - bass; Jack Dejohnette - drums -- played together for the first time in this specific configuration on the recording you hear, no rehearsal.

One of the pantheon as far as I see it, and hear it.

All best,
Fred