Bach St. Matthew's Passion

The 'Building a Library' thread nine months ago sadly didn't really get off the ground, but there was at least some very interesting comments about the St Matthew Passion.

Mike I have this one:



Like you I have not listened to it properly. Now that you have raised the flag and my journey into Bach has progressed a little I will do as you are and listen properly this time

regards
Geoff

First impressions of the Herreweghe are that he is a bit quicker than I've heard, but that was a long time ago. He seems quick.

The orchestra is original instrument, and plays very well in tune with rock solid rhythm. The chorus is striking in its voicing and rhythm. The soloist never get in their own way, and illuminate the text with their phrasing.

The recording sounds spacious, but with a good level of intimacy for the soloist.

It gets more air time.

What this thing needs is a post from GFFJ. At least two of us are trying to get a handhold on a landmark piece of music that is massive in scope and intent. That can happen without George, but only with a lot more sweat and strain than otherwise.

And it will necessarily be incomplete without George's input. Needless to say, also less enjoyable.

So how about it George?

Dear Mike,

The trouble for me is that the Saint Matthew Passion runs about as deep as music can ... To easily describe in a public way such a personal reaction to the music is almost impossible - certainly very difficult - and opens up the real possibility of the kind of flaming that has become a regular part of Forum life in the last year or two for reasons that the faith indicated is apparently considered a nice target for the logicians of this world.

I do not really care to share on the open internet the feelings and lateral relationships [with respect to Faith and Crede] that necessarily are involved.

I have known this work since the early eighties, and certainly did not understand it for a very long time - possibly ten more years after first encountering it.

I believe the work found me rather I found the work, for I knew it and did not undertand it. The penny dropped for me at a time when I began to find that the subject matter had once again become central to my life. This comprehension [from my POV, of the subject matter being essential to loving the work], may not be the case for everyone, or even most other people, and so I consider my own approach to the work as being potentially inapplicable in many cases ...

This is far too serious to actually discuss further on my part, as it could come to appear evangelistic in a world that despises Spirituality, and Faith ...

________________
GFFJ
Senior Member
Posted Thu 12 April 2007 4:04 Posted in reply to a posting from JWM.

Dear James,

Post Script to my posts above...

It seems that I have not had much to say about the Saint Matthew Passion over the years, but it means a very great deal to me:

Try "saint matthew passion fredrik" in the search engine, and some nice things come up. Amazingly I find that I have been entirely consistent on ths subject with the exception of my view of Furtwangler's live 1954 recording, which is on borrowed time here, except that Anton Dermota is so fine as the Evangelist.

____________________

If you think that the posts made about two and a half years ago on this might help you, then please may I suggest you read through the short thread that James [JWM] links to above.

Of course I do not go into the actual Spiritual aspect, but it is what is behind my eventual personal undersatnding of the work. My understanding of it may be quite different to anyone else's. With a work like this, the appreciation of the genius behind the music is only less than half the story for me. If you are looking for the full wonder of this work then I think you start with the words and their meaning. Then the music seems all the more remarkable, human and consoling, and this only helps underline the words.

I do not think I am qualified to try to explain the story, and for me without the story then the music's wonder ceases to have any real importance.

Best wishes from George

This was about as deep as could scratch the surface more than two years ago. Almost nothing on the aspect of spirituality, but some indication of which performances best bring this out in my view ...

GFFJ
Senior Member, Posted Wed 11 April 2007 23:30

Dear James,

This is my second effort. This first was lost just as I tried to post it. That is so frustrating. In short then: I am sorry.

In 1981 I bough the Klemperer set, which is monumental, and quite a tough nut to crack. Very beautifully played and sung, but not a reading that enters into the devotional or fervent aspect very much in my view. Personally, I cannot enjoy Peter Pears Evangelist in this, and it is the part which holds it all together.

After a few years I attended a performance of the music in Hereford Cathedral, and got what the whole thing is about. I began a ten-year search for a recording that managed to be both technically splendid for the spiritual angle and the HIP style angle. Along the way I rejected both Gardiner and Harnoncourt who both made a fine job of a stylish HIP performance, and missed the devotional and emotional aspects far too much for me.

Eventually I found the Leonhardt set, and even taking Rene Jacobs’ voice into account I had found a performance I could listen to as music rather than a run through. I have not heard a finer balance of the "emotional" and the "technically accomplished" aspects, though I mention Jacques below, which has a different balance in this respect. Driven to a single choice I would go for Leonhardt, but please do not overlook the Jacques performance.

Then I bought the live set under Furtwangler with the VPO from Easter 1954. I keep it only for the fact that Anton Dermota is my favourite Evangelist. Not recommended.

Next came another lovely set, and one that stands beside Leonhardt rather well. In 1947/8 Decca recorded the first [almost] complete set under the Bach scholar, Dr Reginald Jacques. Interestingly he is as correct as to Baroque detail as Leonhardt! The performance is generally steadier than Leonhardt, and the recording is obviously less fine, though perfectly adequate, in a very fine transfer by Dutton Vocalion from 78s. The estimable and not too large chorus is the Bach Choir [London] with the Jacques String Orchestra, and the best soloists England could field at the time.

This is the strongest performance from the spiritual standpoint. In fact humanity and spiritual devotion is the starting point, though as I noted the actual playing is very correct as one would expect from the leading Bach scholar of the day in the English speaking world.

But what strikes me is that this is a work that seems to be better served by attending a real performance, which is why the Jacques set is so outstanding even given its age. The perfomance was an annual one with the same people each year, so the recording inspite of its long period of actual recording sessions, over two years, seems to flow with the power of a coninuous live event.

My reaction to the performance at Hereford Cathedral last Tuesday, in Holy Week, was one of being overwhelmed by the power of it. It speaks very directly of mankind’s failings and possibly even more so in our mad modern world. The message is in fact more Universal than the story of the Passion of Christ, but rather a description of human frailty, lack of bravery, and also occasional nobility. The juxtaposition of the noble and the frail in a tragic framework is utterly devastating in its power. For me it is one the key musical works, and probably the most humain of all.

That was still too long, I am sorry. Fredrik

Best wishes from George

George, I will not get the opportunity to hear this Passion played live. And if I did, I don't know that I have the musical competence to stay with it in one long blow.

If I could begin with a couple of choruses and "arias"? and take a really good listen then more and so on, then perhaps someday in future I would be up to the task of a live performance. That would be a nice trip :-)

Do you think you might be able to help me that way?

Offline, yes! But not in here.

Start with, "Mache dich," quite near the end. Read and inwardly diggest the words before going anywhere near the music. When you read the words you may think it is rather depressing, but add in the music and the words are released as a joyful release from the more obvious daily cares! Without the words understood the music is just a merry sort dance, and Bach wrote more approachable ones [in the sense you don't have to listen to two and a half hours music first] elsewhere! In the context and with the words it takes on a great aspect of consolation.

Then send me an email!


ATB from George

PS: One of the great advantages of the Jacques recording of the Passion is that it is in English and in the most beautifully clearly articulated English that is clear in a way that has completely gone out of fashion as singing has tended to value the musical line over the clarity and meaning of the words.

As such you hardly have to do much work on the learning the words. Of course if you are fluent in German, this advantage might be weighed less significant. I listen to the Jacques more often than the other recordings. Furtwangler has gone, and Leonhardt is beautiful but less enthralling than the old Decca recording for Jacques. Of course it is mono, the choir is a tad too large, and the organ is occasionally too big, but none of these seem so significant as the comprehension of the reason for the music shown in tremendous dedication and seriousness of perpose shown by players, choir and soloists [and of course Dr Jacques] and mostly the recording copes admirably, apart from a couple of choruses, where the focus [and clarity of diction] fails somewhat under pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
What this thing needs is a post from GFFJ. At least two of us are trying to get a handhold on a landmark piece of music...

What was I doing then?

quote:

Originally posted by JWM:

quote:

Originally posted by mikeeschman:
What this thing needs is a post from GFFJ. At least two of us are trying to get a handhold on a landmark piece of music...

What was I doing then?

I occasionally make mistakes. Sorry.

I won't attempt a count again.

But the building library thread was a bit lacking in detail ...

quote:

Originally posted by GFFJ:
Offline, yes! But not in here.

Start with, "Mache dich," quite near the end. Read and inwardly diggest the words before going anywhere near the music. When you read the words you may think it is rather depressing, but add in the music and the words are released as a joyful release from the more obvious daily cares! Without the words understood the music is just a merry sort dance, and Bach wrote more approachable ones [in the sense you don't have to listen to two and a half hours music first] elsewhere! In the context and with the words it takes on a great aspect of consolation.

OK, I am on it :-)

I will send e-mails if you insist again. But before I do, consider the many that read these threads and don't comment. Those may benefit from what you say.

Those folks encourage me to write, even in the face of dissent.

Some things need to be heard in a public forum. Here we have more in common than not.

Speak freely here. You are among friends :-)

quote:

I will send e-mails if you insist again. But before I do, consider the many that read these threads and don't comment. Those may benefit from what you say.

Those folks encourage me to write, even in the face of dissent.

Some things need to be heard in a public forum. Here we have more in common than not.

Speak freely here. You are among friends :-)

I'll second that. I like reading what George has to say (especially on the subject of Bach), even if I don't always agree with it. Without George I would not have found Walcha's Art of Fugue, or Edwin Fischer's WTC.

OK, there have been a few ill-tempered threads lately, but it would be a shame if the forum degenerated into a collection of private off-line conversations as a result.

That said, I do understand the point about not wishing to discuss spiritual matters on a general forum like this - these things are too personal, and there is too little scope for such an approach to bear fruit.

Regards
Nigel

I would like to suggest a temper for the discussion of Bach's "St. Matthew's Passion".
I believe this temper would allow all participants full freedom in reacting to this music. After all, that's the very point of posting here on the forum :-)

I believe this temper would allow Mat Cork, who I will never accuse of a religious feeling, to accept and enjoy this music.

I owe this temper to Vonnegut in "Slaughterhouse Five".

I was raised as a Catholic by devout people, but have been changed by life out in the open world. I keep my mouth shut about this and think about it all the time. The reason is simple. I have seen the good devout people do. It seems a part of them. How can you not love that?

So even if I don't believe, my soul can be moved by the loves of devout people, because I know how good they really are.

If you are in that frame of mind, even if that be a strange suit of clothing, you will feel as they feel.

There will be a communion of some sort.

Music is the language of emotion. One of the things that that means, is that it can allow you to feel someone else as they feel themselves.

Music is a magic.

No where more so than here in this Passion.

Perhaps our moderator could remove some of the posts on this thread - when we post on forum we don't always come across quite how we mean.

ROTF makes a good point and I have pruned this one back so the thread can continue.

Thanks Richard :-)

I will do what I can to revive this thread. Problem is, a number of people interested in the thread, who know and love this music, fear vicious and disrespectful posts. Hopefully, we won't have any more of those.

As a child, on Good Friday I would play in a small wind band that accompanied 1000 or so worshippers to nine neighborhood churches. At each church, part of the passion would be read. Between churches, they would sing hymns accompanied by the band.

At the head of the procession, bearers carried various church relics, a Blessed Virgin, bones of Father Seelos, that sort of thing.

You could see every human emotion, suffused in hope and belief, in the faces of those worshippers. I always loved playing these services.

Later, as a student in music school, I spent a night following Bach's "St. Matthew's Passion".
It rocked me to my soles.

That was almost 4 decades ago, and now I am returning to it.

I am trying two different approaches. I am listening without paying any attention to the words. This way, the Passion is like an opera with the grandeur of a Greek Tragedy, thanks to the chorus. The other approach is a quiet reading of the text, reflecting on it's intent and meaning.

Will report more later in the week.

I have had a taste of this dialog on the Passion in e-mails and prefer it in every way, so this thread is dead to me.

A shame, but in the circumstances I can appreciate why you'd want to do so.