New a/c Cord for NANA equipment
Posted by: joesilva on 15 March 2006
Is the new Naim a.c. cord only available in the U.S. ?
Thanks !
Joe
Thanks !
Joe
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by kuma
glenn,
All I can say is try one and report back.
All I can say is try one and report back.
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Naimed
kuma,
Can you share with us what is imprinted on the new cable? The details (manufacturer, gauge..etc). Thank you.
Can you share with us what is imprinted on the new cable? The details (manufacturer, gauge..etc). Thank you.
quote:Originally posted by kuma:
The thicker cord in front is the new one next to the original PC.
Also, the plug is different.
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by David Dever
I just received a Noisetrapper NANA from CablePro and installed it at home, with the new power cords which were already in place, and must say that I'm finally convinced about the performance improvements brought by such a combination–such that this post will now terminate abruptly (while I escape back to the music).
System (two-channel CD segment) is:
CDS2 with PIC update
XPS2
NAC 282 + PSC2
SUPERCAP2
SUPERCAP2 + SNAXO Burndy
SNAXO362
3 x NAP250-2
DBLs with 16.5' NACA5 x 6 runs
on three Fraim racks, with above AC mains cables, etc.
BTW, for the cynical, we do not distribute the CablePro products directly–hence our recommendation is not made out of immediate commercial interest.
System (two-channel CD segment) is:
CDS2 with PIC update
XPS2
NAC 282 + PSC2
SUPERCAP2
SUPERCAP2 + SNAXO Burndy
SNAXO362
3 x NAP250-2
DBLs with 16.5' NACA5 x 6 runs
on three Fraim racks, with above AC mains cables, etc.
BTW, for the cynical, we do not distribute the CablePro products directly–hence our recommendation is not made out of immediate commercial interest.
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by David Dever:
I just received a Noisetrapper NANA from CablePro and installed it at home, with the new power cords which were already in place, and must say that I'm finally convinced about the performance improvements brought by such a combination–such that this post will now terminate abruptly (while I escape back to the music).
System (two-channel CD segment) is:
CDS2 with PIC update
XPS2
NAC 282 + PSC2
SUPERCAP2
SUPERCAP2 + SNAXO Burndy
SNAXO362
3 x NAP250-2
DBLs with 16.5' NACA5 x 6 runs
on three Fraim racks, with above AC mains cables, etc.
BTW, for the cynical, we do not distribute the CablePro products directly–hence our recommendation is not made out of immediate commercial interest.
Dave-
Call me or Ron at your convenience. Something you might be interested in...
Marc
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Jagdeep
Craps!
I missed the bus.
i bought a Graham Hydra with the old cabling 2 months ago.
what a bummer!!!!
I hate this....
Jag
I missed the bus.
i bought a Graham Hydra with the old cabling 2 months ago.
what a bummer!!!!
I hate this....
Jag
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Exiled Highlander
Tuan
Yeah, you are of course right, NANA and the Naim US dealers are now ripping off US customers with their hideoulsy priced power cables. I would think that both NANA and the dealers are making between $3 and $4 a cable in profit, maybe even $5 - what a scandal!
Jim
quote:Well, it is time for Naim to develop some black magic for some petty cash. The company is selling cables and power cords just like the rest of the industry
Yeah, you are of course right, NANA and the Naim US dealers are now ripping off US customers with their hideoulsy priced power cables. I would think that both NANA and the dealers are making between $3 and $4 a cable in profit, maybe even $5 - what a scandal!
Jim
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Chris Koster
Here is the history of the TIBIA powercord.
The Ching Cheng that has been shipping for a year or more can be for some, a bit too bright and a little aggressive in the USA, and more than 80% are wired with the writing going towards the component, 20% or less are towards the wall outlet. The ones with the writing towards the wall outlet sound better, but are rare, and the rest are a bit bright for comfort.
The Volex cords that came before, which were more neutral, became unavailable, and the Ching Cheng was the best alternative.
We also have found that they fit too tightly into the socket, so if you don't push them in far enough, they can make a poor contact. Please check them if you can.
We have been trying expensive cords from just about every high-end cord company and they all are really the pits. All, as in all. Too bad, because they all look great. Some have aspects that are excellent, but they all leave out too much information about the timing of the music. No one gets this right at all compared to the Ching Cheng, or earlier cords.
About 6 months ago, someone suggested that I try the Cablepro power strip. I wanted to get one home and hear what it would do relative to the Wiremold, which I have been using, and selling, since 1980 when I discovered it at the local hardware store when I worked in retail, selling Naim in NY.
I contacted Ted at Cablepro. He described the device in great detail, and is a very patient person. I insisted that it not have a fuse. This is one of the strengths of the Wiremold. Ted felt that it must have a fuse or breaker. I could not agree with this. He did some homework and found that there are lots of strips that don't have breakers or fuses. He made one without a fuse and found it to be far superior.
I got one to try.
It was 60% better than the Wiremold, but the timing was a bit off, and it was tight and bright, but fast, and it had bass, lots of it. I discussed the design with Ted, and asked him if he could make a Cablepro with a cascading wiring arrangement, like the Wiremold, rather than a parallel one, where the four duplexes are in a hydra arrangement.
What I got eventually became the Cablepro NANA.
It was clearly better than the Wiremold, but still slightly too tight. It came with a detachable heavy-duty powercord, which Ted decided to make permanently fixed. This was a further improvement.
We liked the sound of this cord on its own more than the Ching Cheng, not by a huge amount, but enough to work with it, and I ordered a bunch to try in a complete system.
What I got when I ordered it was, by accident, different, and better, and after a lot of demos, loaning them to many highly trusted dealers and customers with serious Naim systems, using them at home and at NANA, we have decided to make them available as well as making sure that all new equipment comes with them.
In combination with the Cablepro NANA which now comes with the TIBIA cord, the performance of the Naim system in the US is better than it has ever been. Is it night and day? Probably not, as the cord and strip we have been providing has been - and still is - excellent.
But, we have seen a lot of people trying weird chunky power cords and over-the-top power strips or boxes, and those systems were never the ones that left any impression, never went anywhere, they just plodded, plunked and clinked. But these guys were not very happy with the Ching Chengs either, both their look (cheap as hell) and sound (maybe a little too bright and hurried). It was time to work it out, and things worked out in our favor. Thanks to Ted for putting up with making around 20 versions, until it was just right, and Chris W and Steve K and Dave D and for being there and helping work through it, version by version.
We have been looking for something better than the Wiremold for two and a half decades, and though certain products were better in a way or two, we never found anything great. And, as our voltage is half and current is double, I suspect that power related bits matter slightly more in the US than in Europe, as current is affected more by wire than is voltage. What works in the US may not be right for the UK or other 230v countries, so you guys should completely ignore this post. Strike if from your minds. We can stick our fingers in light sockets and not fly across the room, up to a point. You can't.
The Ching Cheng that has been shipping for a year or more can be for some, a bit too bright and a little aggressive in the USA, and more than 80% are wired with the writing going towards the component, 20% or less are towards the wall outlet. The ones with the writing towards the wall outlet sound better, but are rare, and the rest are a bit bright for comfort.
The Volex cords that came before, which were more neutral, became unavailable, and the Ching Cheng was the best alternative.
We also have found that they fit too tightly into the socket, so if you don't push them in far enough, they can make a poor contact. Please check them if you can.
We have been trying expensive cords from just about every high-end cord company and they all are really the pits. All, as in all. Too bad, because they all look great. Some have aspects that are excellent, but they all leave out too much information about the timing of the music. No one gets this right at all compared to the Ching Cheng, or earlier cords.
About 6 months ago, someone suggested that I try the Cablepro power strip. I wanted to get one home and hear what it would do relative to the Wiremold, which I have been using, and selling, since 1980 when I discovered it at the local hardware store when I worked in retail, selling Naim in NY.
I contacted Ted at Cablepro. He described the device in great detail, and is a very patient person. I insisted that it not have a fuse. This is one of the strengths of the Wiremold. Ted felt that it must have a fuse or breaker. I could not agree with this. He did some homework and found that there are lots of strips that don't have breakers or fuses. He made one without a fuse and found it to be far superior.
I got one to try.
It was 60% better than the Wiremold, but the timing was a bit off, and it was tight and bright, but fast, and it had bass, lots of it. I discussed the design with Ted, and asked him if he could make a Cablepro with a cascading wiring arrangement, like the Wiremold, rather than a parallel one, where the four duplexes are in a hydra arrangement.
What I got eventually became the Cablepro NANA.
It was clearly better than the Wiremold, but still slightly too tight. It came with a detachable heavy-duty powercord, which Ted decided to make permanently fixed. This was a further improvement.
We liked the sound of this cord on its own more than the Ching Cheng, not by a huge amount, but enough to work with it, and I ordered a bunch to try in a complete system.
What I got when I ordered it was, by accident, different, and better, and after a lot of demos, loaning them to many highly trusted dealers and customers with serious Naim systems, using them at home and at NANA, we have decided to make them available as well as making sure that all new equipment comes with them.
In combination with the Cablepro NANA which now comes with the TIBIA cord, the performance of the Naim system in the US is better than it has ever been. Is it night and day? Probably not, as the cord and strip we have been providing has been - and still is - excellent.
But, we have seen a lot of people trying weird chunky power cords and over-the-top power strips or boxes, and those systems were never the ones that left any impression, never went anywhere, they just plodded, plunked and clinked. But these guys were not very happy with the Ching Chengs either, both their look (cheap as hell) and sound (maybe a little too bright and hurried). It was time to work it out, and things worked out in our favor. Thanks to Ted for putting up with making around 20 versions, until it was just right, and Chris W and Steve K and Dave D and for being there and helping work through it, version by version.
We have been looking for something better than the Wiremold for two and a half decades, and though certain products were better in a way or two, we never found anything great. And, as our voltage is half and current is double, I suspect that power related bits matter slightly more in the US than in Europe, as current is affected more by wire than is voltage. What works in the US may not be right for the UK or other 230v countries, so you guys should completely ignore this post. Strike if from your minds. We can stick our fingers in light sockets and not fly across the room, up to a point. You can't.
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by Chris Koster
The Tibia is $25.00
Posted on: 17 March 2006 by hi fi fo fum
Funny,you are now using the same cord that comes in the Creek box...way to go.....hey Chris is it safe to say you have now solved the mid-range compression....to tell you the truth we have been using a "New" a/c cord for 6 month up hear and there is one even better call me and I'll send you one for 15.00 Canadian plus shipping.
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chris West
Canadian 120V power has a different accent so results may differ ... (just kidding).
All "Tibia" cables as supplied by NANA have been through a consistency selection process which makes them more expensive than otherwise.
This is more about service and support when only the best will do ... than making a fast buck.
Ask yourselves why we would want to do anything less than have Naim systems in the USA sound as best they can?
All "Tibia" cables as supplied by NANA have been through a consistency selection process which makes them more expensive than otherwise.
This is more about service and support when only the best will do ... than making a fast buck.
Ask yourselves why we would want to do anything less than have Naim systems in the USA sound as best they can?
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chayro
Funny bunch here - tell them their $5K CD power supply has been upgraded to a $7.5K model and they line up. Tell them they can get an improved power cord for $25 and they bitch.
Humans are strange animals, aren't they?
Humans are strange animals, aren't they?
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Onthlam
quote:Originally posted by Chris West NANA:
Canadian 120V power has a different accent so results may differ ... (just kidding).
All "Tibia" cables as supplied by NANA have been through a consistency selection process which makes them more expensive than otherwise.
This is more about service and support when only the best will do ... than making a fast buck.
Ask yourselves why we would want to do anything less than have Naim systems in the USA sound as best they can?
Chris-
If this be true,what % goes back to the manufacture and/or what % goes in the bin?
The reason I ask this is because i know how much these cost from the manufacture.I also have a very good idea of what it takes to mark up a product from one level to the next.
Eventually,the manufacture must give you credit or does most of the slotting.If not,you will begin to lose money...At minimum one of the levels in the chain will see little or no margin.....
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by craig sidwell
Why can't you use the 240V Naim UK 'Pirelli' cable, in the US, or Canada, with a US 110V plug?
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by David Dever
quote:Why can't you use the 240V Naim UK 'Pirelli' cable, in the US, or Canada, with a US 110V plug?
Because there is something lost in a non-molded plug–our connector sizes are much smaller over here, which makes de-coupling the pins within the socket much different than the effect one can achieve with a U.K. plug.
Any Continental Europeans care to comment?
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by David Dever
"Funny,you are now using the same cord that comes in the Creek box...way to go...."
Actually, this cable is SLIGHTLY different (and does not require pixie dust).
Actually, this cable is SLIGHTLY different (and does not require pixie dust).
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by NaimDropper
The math Chris spoke of defines at least the 1st order difference between 120V and 240V line power. The resistance of the cable times the square of the current defines the actual power lost in the cable. With half the voltage available to the 120V users, twice the current is required for the same power (VA). Twice the current means 4x the power lost in the wiring for the same gauge, transformer windings, etc.
I can't imagine there is any other effect at play, all the transmission line properties of such a short run of wire are totally swamped in the transformation, rectification, filtering, regulating, etc. that goes on inside the boxes.
Now I don't have any experience with the new power cords but for $25 each I'll drive over to my local dealer and unload $75 for my XPS, Hi and 250 to give it a try.
I won't, however, put one on my NAPSC unless I've fallen on the floor in shock and awe (sonic shock that is) after installing the cords. Then I'll run down and buy another.
I use very heavy gauge cords extracted from various sources. Obviously a too-thin gauge cable will starve the power amplifier of current and does not do my heavy house wiring justice. I am not expecting to hear any difference (a power cord skeptic through-and-through) but for $75 I'll give it a go.
I'm sure Chris, David and company at NANA will be able to retire on all the profit they're making from the distribution on that $75 sale.
Seriously, guys, most of us appreciate the work you've put into this. We all want to find the best arrangements for our sistems.
David
I can't imagine there is any other effect at play, all the transmission line properties of such a short run of wire are totally swamped in the transformation, rectification, filtering, regulating, etc. that goes on inside the boxes.
Now I don't have any experience with the new power cords but for $25 each I'll drive over to my local dealer and unload $75 for my XPS, Hi and 250 to give it a try.
I won't, however, put one on my NAPSC unless I've fallen on the floor in shock and awe (sonic shock that is) after installing the cords. Then I'll run down and buy another.
I use very heavy gauge cords extracted from various sources. Obviously a too-thin gauge cable will starve the power amplifier of current and does not do my heavy house wiring justice. I am not expecting to hear any difference (a power cord skeptic through-and-through) but for $75 I'll give it a go.
I'm sure Chris, David and company at NANA will be able to retire on all the profit they're making from the distribution on that $75 sale.
Seriously, guys, most of us appreciate the work you've put into this. We all want to find the best arrangements for our sistems.
David
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chris West
Marc,
I am somewhat amazed that you would even ask such a question as a businessman yourself. What I am saying (with all due respect), is that a) you don't know all the facts even if you think you do b) there is NO price gouging going on, although we could hold people over a barrel if we wanted to.
In the end people vote with their wallets, and without even "announcing" the new cords let alone any fanfare ... we are constantly out of stock.
Craig,
You might think this is straightforward ... but taking cable A and plug B and thinking this has got to work couldn't be farther from the truth. It's sort of like "match-making" ... sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Also Chris K has pointed out earlier that the voltage and current difference UK to US makes your suggestion void I'm afraid.
I can re-iterate what Chris K said earlier. A lot of time and effort was expended with respect to the CablePro NANA power strip and the power cord issue.
Many people who (like us) are passionately interested in maximum musical performance have found something (power cord or such like) that suits them individually in THEIR system. When WE do something it is thoroughly tried and tested so that it will be of potential benefit to all. The wiremold power strip is a classic example of such.
Basically, it's personal viewpoint by enthusiastic (god bless you all) customers, as against national market trials (and sales) by an authorised distributor (US).
In the end people can choose whom they trust, and hopefully when possible try something when they're not sure.
All the best
Chris
VP NaimUSA
I am somewhat amazed that you would even ask such a question as a businessman yourself. What I am saying (with all due respect), is that a) you don't know all the facts even if you think you do b) there is NO price gouging going on, although we could hold people over a barrel if we wanted to.
In the end people vote with their wallets, and without even "announcing" the new cords let alone any fanfare ... we are constantly out of stock.
Craig,
You might think this is straightforward ... but taking cable A and plug B and thinking this has got to work couldn't be farther from the truth. It's sort of like "match-making" ... sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Also Chris K has pointed out earlier that the voltage and current difference UK to US makes your suggestion void I'm afraid.
I can re-iterate what Chris K said earlier. A lot of time and effort was expended with respect to the CablePro NANA power strip and the power cord issue.
Many people who (like us) are passionately interested in maximum musical performance have found something (power cord or such like) that suits them individually in THEIR system. When WE do something it is thoroughly tried and tested so that it will be of potential benefit to all. The wiremold power strip is a classic example of such.
Basically, it's personal viewpoint by enthusiastic (god bless you all) customers, as against national market trials (and sales) by an authorised distributor (US).
In the end people can choose whom they trust, and hopefully when possible try something when they're not sure.
All the best
Chris
VP NaimUSA
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by smiglass
quote:Funny bunch here - tell them their $5K CD power supply has been upgraded to a $7.5K model and they line up. Tell them they can get an improved power cord for $25 and they bitch.
Humans are strange animals, aren't they?
Agreed! Naim could have given us a new power cable that cost $2,000 (ie Nordost)and many of us would have purchased one without batting an eye. One of the things I appreciate about Naim is that they only suggest and sell what truly improves our music without regard for cost.
BTW, this new combination, CablePro and Tibia, is a significant improvement resulting in decreased hum from the power boxes for one thing and improved noise floor
Anthony
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chris Koster
Thanks for the support. We are really not in the power cord or strip business. Naim is what we must concentrate on from a business perspective. I know that our sales have increased in some part due to the improved performance from all of these new bits.
That makes it worth it for us, but also knowing that you all are pleased, listening, and smiling all at the same time.
As far as the resistance vs current, it is fairly simple math, but, as we all know, these effects, though linear in terms of flow, are never linear in terms of sound. (Like wire direction, which I am pretty sure is not measurable, but easy to hear. If anyone has ever measured it, please tell.)
That makes it worth it for us, but also knowing that you all are pleased, listening, and smiling all at the same time.
As far as the resistance vs current, it is fairly simple math, but, as we all know, these effects, though linear in terms of flow, are never linear in terms of sound. (Like wire direction, which I am pretty sure is not measurable, but easy to hear. If anyone has ever measured it, please tell.)
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chris West
I think I'm quoting JV rightly here ...
All things are measurable ... someday.
We (read the human race) don't necessarily have the intruments to do so yet. At least not those that won't interfere with certain types of measurement that have been attempted.
However, a classic example of Naim overcoming this was the use of a NAT01 to detect jitter (minute timing variations in UHF digital audio data streams) back in 1991 when the first Naim CD player was invented (and the first of it's type without a separate jitter disastrous DAC involved). The NAT 01 proved not just to be one of the most acclaimed and revered radio tuners of all time ... but a most accurate, easy, and non-invasive method of jitter measurement. How sweet is that!
So there's one example of getting ahead of the competion by ingenious in-house means. There are many more that will not be divulged for obvious reasons!
In the final analysis though, the human ear is the most accurate means of "measurement" by listening to (as against just hearing) the overall results.
All things are measurable ... someday.
We (read the human race) don't necessarily have the intruments to do so yet. At least not those that won't interfere with certain types of measurement that have been attempted.
However, a classic example of Naim overcoming this was the use of a NAT01 to detect jitter (minute timing variations in UHF digital audio data streams) back in 1991 when the first Naim CD player was invented (and the first of it's type without a separate jitter disastrous DAC involved). The NAT 01 proved not just to be one of the most acclaimed and revered radio tuners of all time ... but a most accurate, easy, and non-invasive method of jitter measurement. How sweet is that!
So there's one example of getting ahead of the competion by ingenious in-house means. There are many more that will not be divulged for obvious reasons!
In the final analysis though, the human ear is the most accurate means of "measurement" by listening to (as against just hearing) the overall results.
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Onthlam
"All "Tibia" cables as supplied by NANA have been through a consistency selection process which makes them more expensive than otherwise."
Chris W.-
My comments and or question was not an insinuation of gouging or anything of the kind.
My thoughts were directed to the specific statement that is above...
Chris W.-
My comments and or question was not an insinuation of gouging or anything of the kind.
My thoughts were directed to the specific statement that is above...
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by glevethan
Hey guys - you are entitled to make a profit from all of the work which you have put in - work that ultimately benefits all of us. Quite honestly - even if the cables cost $1 each I do not think that you will be getting rich off of this! If you want to get rich then sell some of the other crazy cables which are out in the marketplace at hundreds and thousands of dollars!!!
Thanks for the work
Regards
Gregg
Thanks for the work
Regards
Gregg
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by Chris West
OK no sweat Marc. But suffice it to say that we're not going to parse out the cost structure of a $25 Tibia cable for any reason man!
It is what it is ;-)
It is what it is ;-)
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by jake stead
To: NANA
I just purchased a new nait5i for a bedroom system, I noticed it came with a different power cord than my main naim system. I tried the new cord on my 250-2, thought it sounded quite a bit better than the older one. Without ever hearing about a new power cord, I called my dealer and was told that indeed there was a new power cord shipping with recent equipment. So I ordered 4 of them for my main naim system. To make a long story short, I think it made a drastic improvement in my main system.
I would just like to say that you are to be congratulated for you honesty and integrity for putting so much effort into the introduction of this new cable. I know it may sound silly in a way, but it makes me kind of proud to know I own equipment with such dedicated people like Chris K. Chris W. and Dave D. working for naim, and that you put forth so much effort to make sure that a product meets such high standards. Thanks so much for your insight and your dedication to my hobby.
I just purchased a new nait5i for a bedroom system, I noticed it came with a different power cord than my main naim system. I tried the new cord on my 250-2, thought it sounded quite a bit better than the older one. Without ever hearing about a new power cord, I called my dealer and was told that indeed there was a new power cord shipping with recent equipment. So I ordered 4 of them for my main naim system. To make a long story short, I think it made a drastic improvement in my main system.
I would just like to say that you are to be congratulated for you honesty and integrity for putting so much effort into the introduction of this new cable. I know it may sound silly in a way, but it makes me kind of proud to know I own equipment with such dedicated people like Chris K. Chris W. and Dave D. working for naim, and that you put forth so much effort to make sure that a product meets such high standards. Thanks so much for your insight and your dedication to my hobby.
Posted on: 18 March 2006 by lplover
Just swapped out the old cords for the new ones............a total no-brainer for $25 each. Now I guess I'll have to spring for the Noisetrapper too!