Just got my first Naim system; how does one add a sub?

For sure, a subby is a great idea and absolutely mandatory in a Naim System.

As is surround sound.

Go for your life.

While you're at it, have you considered a power conditioner?

Or maybe even some new inter-connects or speaker cable...

But seriously - if you want to use a sub and enjoy what it does then fill your boots. REL's are usually used with Hi-level connects from the outputs of the power amp.

It should be detailed in the user guide.

Enjoy! but keep it subtle i.e. keep the sub volume down, and cross it over low.

Colin Lorenson

A few thoughts>

- I can't say that I think that a power conditioner would necessarily be a good thing.
I've tried an Audasa Eupen power cable with my Nait. All it did was change things. Yes it made it slightly smoother, but also took away some of the fun of the amp. To me, that would imply that you stick with the existing cables and that you should look at a new mains spur as the only real option to investigate.

- To answer the original question. Your REL will have two inputs, one at high level, one at low level. I found the easiest way to connect my own REL up was to wire the stereo up as normal, then to connect the high-level neutric cable to the speakers and NOT at the amp (just easier).

One thing to bear in mind. I had real problems integrating my sub for ages. Tried lots of different ideas. Turned out that I was having a problem with "timing" between the speakers and the sub. My REL sub was simply MUCH slower than my Linns. My solution was to use the "slam" mode on the REL, and also to mount the sub on a concrete slab, with the floorstanders just spiked to the carpet. Hope that helps.

Hi Ian

As Mr 'S' says - you should be following REL's advice and using the supplied High Level lead with the Neutric connector to the sub and the bare ends to the speaker terminals on the amp.

Richard Lord maintains that this feeds the sub with the same 'character' of bass as the main speakers.

I use a REL Q400 to good effect with Naim SBL's in this manner.

The golden rule is 'keep it subtle'. Use the lowest frequency setting possible and very little gain. Used this way, it doesn't screw up the 'timing' but adds a certain something to the entire frequency range, opening up the 'acoustic' of the recording.

What's a sub-woofer?

Paul Rowlands

J.N.-

Thanks for replying. I have used REL subs for years and regularly wired them in the manner you describe. However, on the NAP 150, there seems to be no way to put bare speaker wire on the speaker "posts" at all. The Naca 5, with termeinations, plugs into the posts and there is no room for any other connections.

With all due respect, my question is specifically about connecting a sub to a NAP 150. Integration of subs, or other tools and tricks, is a matter of taste. Unless there is some connection from the NAC 112, I'm at a loss. Connections direct from speaker posts to sub is not very practical in my case.

I appreciate the sarcasm and snide remarks, too. Apparently there are those who feel that a new Naim system should deny me of music below 35hz. If that works for you, then you should be happy.

Cheers,
Ian

With my 202 setup, I had to connect sub through the hicap that was running my 202. I bought a special cable with 4 pin din on one side and two rca's on the other. I also have a AV2 and it has a sub out connector on the back as you would expect. Hope this helps!
Tennispro

TennisPro-

Thanks. Where did you buy that cable? I wonder if the same config would work with FC2?

Your 202 for sale is tempting......maybe in a few months....

Cheers,
Ian

Ianrmack
There has been discussion on this forum before on this topic so it might be worth doing a search

I have a REL Quake which I ran with a 112/HiCap/150, until I upgraded.
I HAD to connect the Highlevel Neutrik at the speaker terminal ends, because the 150 did not like having the connections at the output sockets on the back of the amp. I had distortion and loud hissing when I tried it like that.

I also tried connecting via a spare signal output from the HiCap to the line level input on the REL which worked, but because this input does not allow the "rollin" frequency of the sub to be adjusted, the sub could not be properly integrated with the main speakers.

Connecting the high level input at the speaker terminals was the only way that worked well. I have continued to use it like this with my 282/250 setup which replaced the 112/ 150 and have continued to be very pleased with the results.

True it needs some patience and trial and error to get the right room location and settings on the REL to integrate so it joins onto the main speaker output and does not make itself obvious. However once done (and the REL subs have the proper range of adjustmenst to do it properly) the effect is worth the trouble. We are not talking about extra "boom boom" but a "lift" in the overall sound field which includes the percieved sound of the other frequencies aswell. This is worth having in spite of what some people who probably have never tried it seem to think.

Are you absolutely sure you cannot make a connection at the speakers. Could'nt you solder the wires to the REL into the banana plugs along with the NACA5?

regards
GEOFFP

Ian
Hopefully my comment wasn't offending (even if it was moronic!).

However, as jamie says, woofers in Naim systems may not work so well.

Personally I've never tried one, and have found that improvements elsewhere in my system have always deterred me.

My system:
CDX2/282/2xHi-Cap/250/Kans

Paul Rowlands

paul-

no worries. if i knew all the answers about naim kit, then i would not be posting my querry here. i am quite accustomed - and thick skinned - when it comes to replies/posts/threads on audio forums. audioasylum is the same way. some people choose to offer assistance, others offer up.....what they can, i guess.

i am puzzled about this. unfortunately, limited funds drove me to buy used hence the lack of help of a naim dealer here. i understand and am aware of some "unconventional" things that naim does and am respectful and open-minded to it. not facilitating 20-35hz octave ranges (when used with mere-mortal monitors)I happen to find....uh....how did you put it...?.....moronic, yes.

it largely depends on the recording, too. no problem with reggae, jazz and such. however, when some recordings from the 60's and 70's are played, the abence of bass (at the recording quality level)could make a sub particularly appealing at times.

oh, well. this is an enjoyable learning process nonetheless.
cheers,
ian

Ian-

Welcome to the forum. I have the same amplifiction as you and am surprised that you want/feel the need for a sub with the Dynaudio 25; they have some pretty good size drivers for a monitor speaker, and I would think can deliver all the bass you need. I have not heard these speakers but they were mentioned as an upgrade to my ProAc tablette 50 sigs because I was craveing more bass.
My first thought when looking at these speakers was if the 150 could properly drive them.
Also, are you using NACA5 speaker cable?

Failing that, I am using a sub connected via the hicap. You can do this from an output of your flatcap as well. You will need to have a cable made up of a 4-pin din on one end and RCA on the other for connection to your sub. Also, you may be able to have a high-pass filter fitted in the 150. You will notice an improvement of the mid-highs with the addition of the filter and should solve the problem of the airiness that Jdahlum describes.
Definately go see Ken at ProMusica, the Naim dealer in Chicago. They'll be able to help you with this.

Regards, Max

Thanks, Max.
Your response was what I was looking for. As I said, for me and MT tastes, bass can be recording dependent. Try putting on the Allmann Brothers "live at Filmore East".....I look for bass in a sub to augment - not replace.
Where do you get a cable like that?
I don't want to speak with Promusica about this because I chose - for $$ reasons - to buy used.
Thanks,
Ian

Ian

I use 'piggy-back' connectors in my 250. The sort that will accept another connection through the side of the 'post'.

Take the bare ends of the sub lead and fold over several times to end up with a thick wadge of wire, and crimp it up by screwing down the top of the connector.

Then the normal 4mm speaker plug goes in the top.

quote:

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The bottom line, IMHO, is if you want full range performance, then get a full range loudspeaker.

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So far, I've reached to the same conclusion.
Unless you have a free room to experiment various positioning of subs ( BTW, stereo subs are the way to go over mono ) there's something unnatural about 'em.

I can hear good implementation of subs can open up the midrange and whatnot, but ultimately it was too tweaky and pain in the arse to fiddle with.

Hi Kuma

quote:

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there's something unnatural about 'em.

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This illustrates again, thet we are listening for different things. There's something unnatural about losing not only a couple of bottom octaves (and more importantly to me) a chunk of the 'acoustic' of a recording.

If I switch off my sub; on say vocals and acoustic guitar (no real low bass content); the soundstage collapses and the sound goes thin and grainy.

And; they don't have to be obtrusive. REL's advice for corner placement to 'drive' the room better, means that a Q400 like mine could be hidden behind some furniture.

quote:

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Originally posted by J.N.:
[QUOTE]If I switch off my sub; on say vocals and acoustic guitar (no real low bass content); the soundstage collapses and the sound goes thin and grainy.

And; they don't have to be obtrusive. REL's advice for corner placement to 'drive' the room better, means that a Q400 like mine could be hidden behind some furniture.

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J.N.

A subtle use of sub(s) does open up the midrange and gives the music better sense of acoustics and the effortless=ness. I certainly could appreciate that.
However, in my room, subs needed to be in the middle of the room (away from the corner placement ) to work.

Interestingly, when I used higher powered amps than the ones I am currently using, I got the same effect. i.e. gained few hz on the bottom as well as freeing the music without diturbing the room. But this time it sounded more coherent as a whole.

so, for me, changing amps might be in order rather than adding couple of subs in the system.

[This message was edited by kuma on SUNDAY 16 November 2003 at 04:58.]

J.N. have you not considered soldering the speaker wire direct to the naim plugs?

I was sceptical this lot made any difference but on friends much less expensive system she had put plugs very very similar to your both ends of the speaker wire, once removed things improved drmatically.

Just a thought.

I saw Wishbone Ash in concert on their New England tour (a few years back). Laurie Wisefield is a great guitarist!

Paul Rowlands

Hi J.N. / Garyi,

I posted the same thread before, also discussed with Richard Lord (REL) at the Hi Fi show. At the end I would like to connect the high level neutrik cable to the speaker ends. Since the 3 wires on one ends of the cable are going to both R & L speakers, you have to modify the cable and it's a bit messy in my opinion.

Then I chose the easy option, get a pair of banana plugs and put the neutrik cable in the middle of the banana plugs and Naim speakers plug in at the end of it at the back of NAP250, similar to J.N.'s I think. It seems to work fine. I would see it this way, some music I would prefer the sub on, some don't. It does affect the timing, so have to keep it subtle as most of the people sgguested here.

At least I have the option of both and I can compare the difference. As long as the sound of the system is not degrading.

I also thought about the impact which garyi raised.
Did not unplug them and compare, can anyone confirm the impact?

cheers
Martin

quote:

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I saw Wishbone Ash in concert on their New England tour (a few years back). Laurie Wisefield is a great guitarist!

Paul Rowlands

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Wrong thread Paul. You should have put your comment here:

http://forums.naim-audio.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=67019385&f=38019385&m=9801993486&p=4

Of course if you were just being sarcastic then maybe you DID~post it in the right place. If so, fancy bothering.

Thanks, All -

But, alas, I solved my own problem. I sold my old REL sub and used the funds to get the right system.

A CDX2/202/PSC2/Hiacp2/250 entered my house last evening. Problem solved.

Contentment abounds.

Cheers,
ian

Hi, GeoffP
Look at JN's photo a few posts up...

Paul Rowlands

Paul

DuuuuH!

All is forgiven, though I suspect you do not approve of sub-woofers particulalrly.

Apologies

Geoff_Phillipps@compuserve.com