Fraim
Posted by: Jean-Marc on 27 December 2002
Hi,
I have recently purchased a 2nd S/H Hicap for my 82, one of the best thing I have ever done. Improvement is really impressive, the system
now reproduced music with coherence.
So my system is now:
CDS2/XPS/82/2*HiCap/180/KEF LS3.5A
Thorens TD124/Ittok/Benz Glider
+ dedicated spur
Much of this is sitting on a 4tier Soundstyle Tripod, that means the Hicaps are relegated aside on a DIY spiked board directly on the floor.
BUT, the system still have a slight tendency for sibilance and a slight "hardness" in the high register, particularly on voices, when I push the
volume (either with CD or vinyl).
My room is quiet small and certainly not adequately damped, and it is also clear that the Tripod as ran its course.
But I strongly suspect the 180.
I was considering swapping it for a 250. But I was also considering buying a Fraim. Price is not the same, in the first case a maximum of £1000,
and £2500 for the Fraim!
What shall be the best upgrade, if any? I really can't buy both, having recently shell out big dough for a CDS2.
Thanks very much
Jean-Marc
I have recently purchased a 2nd S/H Hicap for my 82, one of the best thing I have ever done. Improvement is really impressive, the system
now reproduced music with coherence.
So my system is now:
CDS2/XPS/82/2*HiCap/180/KEF LS3.5A
Thorens TD124/Ittok/Benz Glider
+ dedicated spur
Much of this is sitting on a 4tier Soundstyle Tripod, that means the Hicaps are relegated aside on a DIY spiked board directly on the floor.
BUT, the system still have a slight tendency for sibilance and a slight "hardness" in the high register, particularly on voices, when I push the
volume (either with CD or vinyl).
My room is quiet small and certainly not adequately damped, and it is also clear that the Tripod as ran its course.
But I strongly suspect the 180.
I was considering swapping it for a 250. But I was also considering buying a Fraim. Price is not the same, in the first case a maximum of £1000,
and £2500 for the Fraim!
What shall be the best upgrade, if any? I really can't buy both, having recently shell out big dough for a CDS2.
Thanks very much
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by calum scott
Jean-Marc,
you have spent a whole lot of money on putting together a first rate system but arguably you are not getting the best from it as the performance is being compromised by the stand which you have.
I must confess at this stage to being a Fraim owner but the cost of my Fraim relative to the cost of the rest of my system is a lot higher than yours and I would wholeheartedly recommend you think very seriously about stands before you spend any more on boxes. Fraim isn’t the only option do some searches on the forum and you’ll find strong advocates for most of the serious brands, Mana, Hutter etc etc.
A way, which some UK dealers are suggesting, to save on the cost of the Fraim is to use a tall shelf unit instead only short ones. A tall unit will house all your powered kit i.e. XPS, 180 and the 2 Hicaps. You’d then need two small shelves for the CD2 and the 82.
If you decide that boxes are the way to go there is another option, which might be better, which is to change out the 2 hi-caps for a supercap. Again search the forum as this topic has been covered many times and to most people is a great upgrade.
Might also want to consider whether your speakers are keeping up with the standard of the rest of the system.
If it was me, I’d do any of the above before changing the 180 for a 250 but you pays your money and takes your chance….
Merry Christmas,
Calum
you have spent a whole lot of money on putting together a first rate system but arguably you are not getting the best from it as the performance is being compromised by the stand which you have.
I must confess at this stage to being a Fraim owner but the cost of my Fraim relative to the cost of the rest of my system is a lot higher than yours and I would wholeheartedly recommend you think very seriously about stands before you spend any more on boxes. Fraim isn’t the only option do some searches on the forum and you’ll find strong advocates for most of the serious brands, Mana, Hutter etc etc.
A way, which some UK dealers are suggesting, to save on the cost of the Fraim is to use a tall shelf unit instead only short ones. A tall unit will house all your powered kit i.e. XPS, 180 and the 2 Hicaps. You’d then need two small shelves for the CD2 and the 82.
If you decide that boxes are the way to go there is another option, which might be better, which is to change out the 2 hi-caps for a supercap. Again search the forum as this topic has been covered many times and to most people is a great upgrade.
Might also want to consider whether your speakers are keeping up with the standard of the rest of the system.
If it was me, I’d do any of the above before changing the 180 for a 250 but you pays your money and takes your chance….
Merry Christmas,
Calum
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by AL4N
I also was at a point were an upgrade was due.My local dealer came around and done a demo with a Fraime,and after a couple of hours i was sold. No doubt i could of got a very nice "box" upgrade for the same money,but for the sonic upgrade,it was money well spent cheer's
Alan
Alan
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by Jean-Marc
Alex, Calum, Alan,
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
As Calum wrote, I have tried to build a coherent system with "source first" in mind, thus the CDS2.
I purchased this 180 new a few years ago for my former system (Nac 92 (converted Nait3) and CD3.5) and if I'm able to keep the 180 for a while, the better for me (the less I will loose
money).
To be clear, I do not have any fixations on "boxes" upgrade, all I want
is to get the most of the gear I have, thus my post on the Forum.
Calum wrote:
"Might also want to consider whether your speakers are keeping up with the standard of the rest of the system."
I really don't think the problem comes from my LS3/5. I know they don't give much bass and don't play loud but they are wonderful speakers
and they surely don't put any hardness in the medium/treble range.
Calum also wrote:
"If you decide that boxes are the way to go there is another option, which might be better, which is to change out the 2 hi-caps for a supercap. Again search the forum as this topic has been covered many times and to most people is a great upgrade."
Yes I have read the old threads. Conclusion is that there is clearly 2 camps! I decided to purchase a 2nd S/H Hicap as (as with the 180)
the first Hicap was bought new and I'd prefered keep it for a while.
I think that the Supercap will come in its time along with a 52 or a 252, but that's still a distant future.
Now back to the 250 / Fraim "fight"
I was strongly suspecting lots of votes for the Fraim and it seems this is the obvious way to go..... but it is expensive (3300 Euros here in France for a base + 4 shelves).
Maybe one alternative is that I get only a Fraim base+1 shelf for the CDS and 82 and keep the Soundstyle for the PSUs+amp, until I get
other shelves?
Thanks
Jean-Marc
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
As Calum wrote, I have tried to build a coherent system with "source first" in mind, thus the CDS2.
I purchased this 180 new a few years ago for my former system (Nac 92 (converted Nait3) and CD3.5) and if I'm able to keep the 180 for a while, the better for me (the less I will loose
money).
To be clear, I do not have any fixations on "boxes" upgrade, all I want
is to get the most of the gear I have, thus my post on the Forum.
Calum wrote:
"Might also want to consider whether your speakers are keeping up with the standard of the rest of the system."
I really don't think the problem comes from my LS3/5. I know they don't give much bass and don't play loud but they are wonderful speakers
and they surely don't put any hardness in the medium/treble range.
Calum also wrote:
"If you decide that boxes are the way to go there is another option, which might be better, which is to change out the 2 hi-caps for a supercap. Again search the forum as this topic has been covered many times and to most people is a great upgrade."
Yes I have read the old threads. Conclusion is that there is clearly 2 camps! I decided to purchase a 2nd S/H Hicap as (as with the 180)
the first Hicap was bought new and I'd prefered keep it for a while.
I think that the Supercap will come in its time along with a 52 or a 252, but that's still a distant future.
Now back to the 250 / Fraim "fight"
I was strongly suspecting lots of votes for the Fraim and it seems this is the obvious way to go..... but it is expensive (3300 Euros here in France for a base + 4 shelves).
Maybe one alternative is that I get only a Fraim base+1 shelf for the CDS and 82 and keep the Soundstyle for the PSUs+amp, until I get
other shelves?
Thanks
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 27 December 2002 by Manu
quote:
Originally posted by Jean-Marc:
Maybe one alternative is that I get only a Fraim base+1 shelf for the CDS and 82 and keep the Soundstyle for the PSUs+amp, until I get
other shelves?
Jean-Marc
It's your best option for now, IMO.
Emmanuel
All opinions are my own, and reflect those of the organisation i work for, even if not stipulated.
Posted on: 28 December 2002 by NB
I added a Naim fraim to my system last year and it made a huge difference to the sound. I found it really opened the sound out and helped focus the music.
If you cannot afford to place a fraim under every item then yes consider just the CD and pre-amp first. That is going to make the biggest improvement. Then you can add more stages as you can afford it.
I agree with Alex that the 180 is going to be you weakest link but to get a noticable improvement then you should look to the 250 as minimum. The only problem is that its not cheep and therefore the Fraim will be the most cost effective move for now.
Happy new year,
NB
If you cannot afford to place a fraim under every item then yes consider just the CD and pre-amp first. That is going to make the biggest improvement. Then you can add more stages as you can afford it.
I agree with Alex that the 180 is going to be you weakest link but to get a noticable improvement then you should look to the 250 as minimum. The only problem is that its not cheep and therefore the Fraim will be the most cost effective move for now.
Happy new year,
NB
Posted on: 28 December 2002 by kan man
Hi Jean-Marc
A few comments from me: You are definitely at the point where considering better stands makes good sense. I would also say that if you are looking at equipment upgrades as an alternative you should consider changing the 82 for a 52/252. This may well be a better option than improving your power amp (it was for me).
Fraim is not the only option, there are other cheaper stands that you may prefer and if your turntable is an important source you may find that you benefit from a seperate (possibly different) stand for it.
Regards
Steve
A few comments from me: You are definitely at the point where considering better stands makes good sense. I would also say that if you are looking at equipment upgrades as an alternative you should consider changing the 82 for a 52/252. This may well be a better option than improving your power amp (it was for me).
Fraim is not the only option, there are other cheaper stands that you may prefer and if your turntable is an important source you may find that you benefit from a seperate (possibly different) stand for it.
Regards
Steve
Posted on: 28 December 2002 by J.N.
I installed some Fraim for a friend yesterday. He needed 8 levels but could only afford 4; so (as in one of the above posts) he bought 4 levels and we put the pre-amp stuff on it.
The effect was still clearly audible and a great improvement over his old Sound Org steel rack.
I reckon it's worth putting 5 series stuff on Fraim, personally. It's that good.
How else are you going to get the full potential out of your Naim kit?
There are other good quality options of course, but it's getting to hear the differences that's the problem.
I mentioned the 'M' word once, but I think I got away with it!
Happy new MMIII
The effect was still clearly audible and a great improvement over his old Sound Org steel rack.
I reckon it's worth putting 5 series stuff on Fraim, personally. It's that good.
How else are you going to get the full potential out of your Naim kit?
There are other good quality options of course, but it's getting to hear the differences that's the problem.
I mentioned the 'M' word once, but I think I got away with it!
Happy new MMIII
Posted on: 28 December 2002 by graphoman
if you are really ready to “get only a Fraim base+1 shelf for the CDS and 82” (supported by Manu as well) you may be interested in my experiments published elsewhere on this forum.
I use only imitations of Fraim. From the start on I had to get into account that I won’t be able to reproduce the aluminium pieces to factory standard. The improvement was, however, nearly as impressive like the upgrade from CD3 to CDS1. I use two racks, each consisisting of Base+2 levels.
Tell me your email and I send you my drawings with pleasure. If you’ll have a “real” Base+Level then you can complete them with your DYE work. Or, alternatively, you can buy 2 levels and make your own bases. (The Base does not have the alu pieces, the Achilles heale of mine!) Even if for temporary use only. This solution has the advantage that you can compare the factory items to the DYE ones and if you are not satisfied, then you can buy the factory Bases later.
graphoman
I use only imitations of Fraim. From the start on I had to get into account that I won’t be able to reproduce the aluminium pieces to factory standard. The improvement was, however, nearly as impressive like the upgrade from CD3 to CDS1. I use two racks, each consisisting of Base+2 levels.
Tell me your email and I send you my drawings with pleasure. If you’ll have a “real” Base+Level then you can complete them with your DYE work. Or, alternatively, you can buy 2 levels and make your own bases. (The Base does not have the alu pieces, the Achilles heale of mine!) Even if for temporary use only. This solution has the advantage that you can compare the factory items to the DYE ones and if you are not satisfied, then you can buy the factory Bases later.
graphoman
Posted on: 11 January 2003 by Jean-Marc
Thanks to all who take some time to answer my questions.
I have ordered a Fraim today (a complete one, ouch!!).
Meanwhile, I have also purchased a S/H 250 (re-ouch!!). I didn't intend to buy an other amp for a start but a good deal not far from home (didn't have to go through the shipping hassles, etc ) makes me decide quickly.
The 250 is a great amp and brings a lot to the system but I'm really looking forward the Fraim, as my "problem" was definitively not, as you said, due to the amp.
Cheers
Jean-Marc
I have ordered a Fraim today (a complete one, ouch!!).
Meanwhile, I have also purchased a S/H 250 (re-ouch!!). I didn't intend to buy an other amp for a start but a good deal not far from home (didn't have to go through the shipping hassles, etc ) makes me decide quickly.
The 250 is a great amp and brings a lot to the system but I'm really looking forward the Fraim, as my "problem" was definitively not, as you said, due to the amp.
Cheers
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 21 January 2003 by Jean-Marc
Hi,
back to this thread after a few days to give my first impressions.
So I received my Fraim last Thursday. Assembly and installation is a breeze - took me not more than 2 1/2 hours for a base + 4 shelves and gear installation.
System is now, from top:
CDS2
82
250
2 hicaps
XPS
As usual, when powered off (even for a few minutes), the system have to get back in full swing and it was not until Saturday that it re-started to perform correctly. My first impressions were a bit mixed at this time -"What, so much money in a stand for THAT?" as it was not the expected improvement.
But, I have made my first serious listening session yesterday night, after 4 days of burning-in. I think the stand have also to burn-in as what I got last night was AMAZING.
It was the first time since I started my upgrade path earlier in 2002 that my system played music and I didn't care about anything else. It can't be described with hi fi terms and maybe that's the best I can say about it.
Jean-Marc
back to this thread after a few days to give my first impressions.
So I received my Fraim last Thursday. Assembly and installation is a breeze - took me not more than 2 1/2 hours for a base + 4 shelves and gear installation.
System is now, from top:
CDS2
82
250
2 hicaps
XPS
As usual, when powered off (even for a few minutes), the system have to get back in full swing and it was not until Saturday that it re-started to perform correctly. My first impressions were a bit mixed at this time -"What, so much money in a stand for THAT?" as it was not the expected improvement.
But, I have made my first serious listening session yesterday night, after 4 days of burning-in. I think the stand have also to burn-in as what I got last night was AMAZING.
It was the first time since I started my upgrade path earlier in 2002 that my system played music and I didn't care about anything else. It can't be described with hi fi terms and maybe that's the best I can say about it.
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 21 January 2003 by Neil Bennett
I was interested to see several recommendations were that, if doing only a partial Fraim upgrade that posters went for the CD/pre amps. I asked a dealer (in Oxford) about this and they advocated using the partial Fraim for power amps/power supplies insisting that they'd repeatedly observed greater sound benefits from this. Has anyone got A-B experience or theoretical explanations of what should sound better?
Posted on: 21 January 2003 by Martin Payne
quote:
Originally posted by Neil Bennett:
I asked a dealer (in Oxford) about this and they advocated using the partial Fraim for power amps/power supplies insisting that they'd repeatedly observed greater sound benefits from this. Has anyone got A-B experience or theoretical explanations of what should sound better?
Neil,
I would have suggested Fraiming front-end components without a second thought, but a friend was in exactly this situation & found things pretty dissapointing.
He swapped Fraim onto 250s & PSs - it was much better.
cheers, Martin
E-mail:- MartinPayne at Dial.Pipex.com
Posted on: 22 January 2003 by Jean-Marc
Menilmontant1948,
thanks for the tip, I didn't know that.
In fact, my current system now gives lots of bass (the Fraim have even given further improvment) and I have to be very careful with the volume button !!
My system is in a small room for now and I intend to keep my LS3/5A until I move. Then I will see, depending on the physical configuration of the "music" room if I go to bigger floor standing speakers such as SBL or equivalent.
Cheers
Jean-Marc
thanks for the tip, I didn't know that.
In fact, my current system now gives lots of bass (the Fraim have even given further improvment) and I have to be very careful with the volume button !!
My system is in a small room for now and I intend to keep my LS3/5A until I move. Then I will see, depending on the physical configuration of the "music" room if I go to bigger floor standing speakers such as SBL or equivalent.
Cheers
Jean-Marc
Posted on: 22 January 2003 by Greg Beatty
quote:
It was the first time since I started my upgrade path earlier in 2002 that my system played music and I didn't care about anything else.
Bingo!
This happened to me in my last demo - CD5/112/150/FC2 and Fraim into Meadowlark Swifts.
- GregB
Insert Witty Signature Line Here
Posted on: 22 January 2003 by Thomas K
quote:
If you cannot afford to place a fraim under every item then yes consider just the CD and pre-amp first.
quote:
they advocated using the partial Fraim for power amps/power supplies insisting that they'd repeatedly observed greater sound benefits from this
Based on findings with my finite elemente Pagode stand, which has two different types of shelves (OK and very good), I would (also) disagree with the first statement and concur with the second.
I got great improvements from placing both my XPS as well as my Supercap (for the preamp) on the better shelves, with the CDP and pre in the 'cheaper seats'. The PSU is, after all, still part of the source/preamp in this configuration.
I suppose the idea that you should place the CDP on a better stand works when you're using an integrated model, in which case you would in effect be placing the CDP's transformer on the better stand as well.
Thomas