Art Rant
Posted by: Deane F on 16 September 2005
I have been spending some time looking through the commercial galleries dotted about the town to which I have recently moved.
"Relentless mediocrity" is a term that springs to mind to describe nearly every single painting that I see. And the prices! Perhaps the artists have a simple formula - multiply the cost of the support and the medium by at least a factor of fifteen but preferably twenty?
The use of large areas of red in paintings is a cheap trick as well which I see a lot of in commercial galleries but which sells paintings - ask any gallery owner.
"Relentless mediocrity" is a term that springs to mind to describe nearly every single painting that I see. And the prices! Perhaps the artists have a simple formula - multiply the cost of the support and the medium by at least a factor of fifteen but preferably twenty?
The use of large areas of red in paintings is a cheap trick as well which I see a lot of in commercial galleries but which sells paintings - ask any gallery owner.
Posted on: 16 September 2005 by DIL
As a mate of mine once pointed out, anyone can make art, problem is selling it. How true.
Having said that, 'good art', ie stuff which one stops to look at, which leaves an impression etc. does not have to be complex or technically difficult. Look at Matise / Picasso sketches.
/dl
Having said that, 'good art', ie stuff which one stops to look at, which leaves an impression etc. does not have to be complex or technically difficult. Look at Matise / Picasso sketches.
/dl
Posted on: 16 September 2005 by MichaelC
Art has never really been a subject that has interested me.
Have a few nice pictures on the wall. Most art that I have ever seen revolves around album covers. Remember those covers from the various Yes albums.
Back in July I had a wander around The National Portrait Galllery. I guess that these portraits float people's boats so to speak but most of it left me feeling cold. Very few of the pictures exhibited I would want hanging on my wall.
An emotive subject just like music really.
And as for that modern crap such as unmade bedrooms - I really do not understand.
Have a few nice pictures on the wall. Most art that I have ever seen revolves around album covers. Remember those covers from the various Yes albums.
Back in July I had a wander around The National Portrait Galllery. I guess that these portraits float people's boats so to speak but most of it left me feeling cold. Very few of the pictures exhibited I would want hanging on my wall.
An emotive subject just like music really.
And as for that modern crap such as unmade bedrooms - I really do not understand.
Posted on: 17 September 2005 by Nime
I have more than a few personal clichés to offer.
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
Modern art is not art. It is a worthless commercial product looking for a deluded owner.
Nothing has value until someone wants it.
If you can borrow the money to open a gallery you can meet many deluded people quite effortlessly.
Art is the absolute prooof that time travels backwards.
Cave paintings leave modern art for dead. Both are done in the dark.
I know what I like... But it takes imagination, talent and skill well beyond the norm.
Art students are like many other students. But fewer of them have any real talent and almost all want an easy life.
Great artists aren't discovered. Their art was there all the time.
"Difficult art" doesn't exist. Except in the minds of the lazy, deluded dullards who produced it. And the lazy individuals who can make a quick buck out of it. The latter are far more important than the former since the former are completely disposable and just as easily forgotten.
Modern "art" is an oxymoron.
A modern "art" gallery is an oxymoron.
A "hidden" talent for art is an oxymoron.
Modern art could be produced in a factory by untrained chimps. And often is.
A modern artist is an unemployed person with a hobby.
Modern Art "experts" are experts only at self-delusion and deluding the naive. If they weren't doing this they would probably be involved in cult religion or UFO watching or futures markets.
Real art is easily recognisable by all who see it.
Recognising real art requires no coaching, no teaching, no classes, no lessons, no qualifications, no study, no experts and absolutely no special insight.
Recognising real art is not a gift. It is a normal human trait.
Nobody argues about real art. They are too busy admiring it.
Nobody needs to turn their head sideways to look at real art.
Many modern painters were also "scribblers" and "scrubbers" when they were little kids. Physical maturity brought no improvement in their skills, dexterity or hand-to-eye coordination. This may, or may not, affect their career.
A great artist doesn't need luck. He was born with it.
A complete myth can still lead to a successful career.
Frequent users of the word "philistine" should seek professional medical help.
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
Modern art is not art. It is a worthless commercial product looking for a deluded owner.
Nothing has value until someone wants it.
If you can borrow the money to open a gallery you can meet many deluded people quite effortlessly.
Art is the absolute prooof that time travels backwards.
Cave paintings leave modern art for dead. Both are done in the dark.
I know what I like... But it takes imagination, talent and skill well beyond the norm.
Art students are like many other students. But fewer of them have any real talent and almost all want an easy life.
Great artists aren't discovered. Their art was there all the time.
"Difficult art" doesn't exist. Except in the minds of the lazy, deluded dullards who produced it. And the lazy individuals who can make a quick buck out of it. The latter are far more important than the former since the former are completely disposable and just as easily forgotten.
Modern "art" is an oxymoron.
A modern "art" gallery is an oxymoron.
A "hidden" talent for art is an oxymoron.
Modern art could be produced in a factory by untrained chimps. And often is.
A modern artist is an unemployed person with a hobby.
Modern Art "experts" are experts only at self-delusion and deluding the naive. If they weren't doing this they would probably be involved in cult religion or UFO watching or futures markets.
Real art is easily recognisable by all who see it.
Recognising real art requires no coaching, no teaching, no classes, no lessons, no qualifications, no study, no experts and absolutely no special insight.
Recognising real art is not a gift. It is a normal human trait.
Nobody argues about real art. They are too busy admiring it.
Nobody needs to turn their head sideways to look at real art.
Many modern painters were also "scribblers" and "scrubbers" when they were little kids. Physical maturity brought no improvement in their skills, dexterity or hand-to-eye coordination. This may, or may not, affect their career.
A great artist doesn't need luck. He was born with it.
A complete myth can still lead to a successful career.
Frequent users of the word "philistine" should seek professional medical help.
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by JeremyD
Technical skill is to art as stereo imaging is to hi-fi.quote:Originally posted by Nime:
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by JeremyD:Technical skill is to art as stereo imaging is to hi-fi.quote:Originally posted by Nime:
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
An artist is someone who very obviously sees through delusion better than a non-artist.
Technical skill was once the most important thing about art - just as was the artist's compliance to the ideas of a "school".
Marcel Duchamp had no more skill than a non-artist when he picked up the broken toilet bowl on his way to the exhibition and displayed it there under his name. It certainly wasn't painting, drawing or sculpture but it was definitely art.
What I don't get is how long ago that was (Dadaism) and idiots are still trying to pull the same sort of thing off.
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by Nime
If you aren't a draughtsman you have no right to claim you are an artist. Any more than a non-player can claim to be concert pianist. Or a motorist claiming to be a racing driver. When in fact he's only a taxi drover.
It is a matter of descriptive qualification by level of skill. Not an absolute. But close enough.
It is a matter of descriptive qualification by level of skill. Not an absolute. But close enough.
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by Jay
Is this forum art?
Makes you think doesn't it.
Makes you think doesn't it.
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by Nime
Troublemaker!
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by u5227470736789439
quote:Originally posted by Jay:
Is this forum art?
Makes you think doesn't it.
I think not! Fredrik
Posted on: 19 September 2005 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Nime:
If you aren't a draughtsman you have no right to claim you are an artist.
That is akin to saying that if you don't understand it you have no right to pass a remark upon it.
It would certainly make that person at least as ignorant as the ignorance they attempt to condemn.
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Nime
I'm talking about natural talent and basic manipulative skills.
I don't expect levitation from anything but a TV magician. But I do expect a conjurer to be able to handle cards with some dexterity.
By what right do artists claim to be so without the most basic levels of skill? Imagination is not enough. I can probably replicate almost anything these lazy arses can come up with.I can probably produce many more biizarre things at a whim. But I do not call myself an artist.
Applying the label to anybody and anything they produce demeans those who are real artists. It is a talent and skill I greatly admire and wish I had those gifts myself. To add to all my others.
I don't expect levitation from anything but a TV magician. But I do expect a conjurer to be able to handle cards with some dexterity.
By what right do artists claim to be so without the most basic levels of skill? Imagination is not enough. I can probably replicate almost anything these lazy arses can come up with.I can probably produce many more biizarre things at a whim. But I do not call myself an artist.
Applying the label to anybody and anything they produce demeans those who are real artists. It is a talent and skill I greatly admire and wish I had those gifts myself. To add to all my others.
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by rodwsmith
quote:Originally posted by Nime:
I can probably replicate almost anything these lazy arses can come up with.
But do you?
Have you?
Show us some.
If the answer to these is "no", or I can't, then perhaps you should just shut up.
Most art that we now regard as truly great was HATED at the time of its production. From Michelangelo to Picasso and beyond, the artists who pushed the boundaries have been ex-communicated, ostracised, have died in poverty of chronic ill-health, just as much as they have made piles of cash doing something of which you clearly have no comprehension and - if I read between the lines correctly - unbridalled jealousy.
Just because you neither care for nor understand something does not make it "not art".
Why not think for a minute about one of your well-honed self-styled "clichés":
"Modern "art" is an oxymoron"
This makes no sense whatsoever. Even allowing for the fact that modern art is, apparently, often produced in factories by untrained chimps, your ill-informed nonsense "oxymoron" precludes the idea of anyone at all making art of any sort today.
When did you last visit an art gallery?
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Deane F
I think that some of the conceptual art being produced these days is boring. Much of it says only one thing.
Billy Apple is good example.
Billy Apple is good example.
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by rodwsmith
Deane I entirely agree.
For every nugget of ore there is an awful lot of slag.
But this phenomenon is neither new, nor of itself regrettable.
This stuff does not get sold or looked at unless there is a market or audience for it. Of course there is an "emperor's new clothes" aspect, but no-one has to look at it if they don't want to.
Ill-informed comments which can quite reasonably be summed up as "I don't like it, and I think I could have done better*, therefore it is rubbish" add nothing to the debate, and can be construed as offensive: Lucien Freud is one of the best painters and craftsmen with a brush that the UK has ever produced. He may be old, but he is still actively painting today (which conforms to my dictionary's definition of "modern"). Oh, but why does he bother when in Nimeworld he is obsolete and outclassed by untrained-monkey filled factories?
*Tellingly, however, no-one who has claimed this has ever actually done so...
For every nugget of ore there is an awful lot of slag.
But this phenomenon is neither new, nor of itself regrettable.
This stuff does not get sold or looked at unless there is a market or audience for it. Of course there is an "emperor's new clothes" aspect, but no-one has to look at it if they don't want to.
Ill-informed comments which can quite reasonably be summed up as "I don't like it, and I think I could have done better*, therefore it is rubbish" add nothing to the debate, and can be construed as offensive: Lucien Freud is one of the best painters and craftsmen with a brush that the UK has ever produced. He may be old, but he is still actively painting today (which conforms to my dictionary's definition of "modern"). Oh, but why does he bother when in Nimeworld he is obsolete and outclassed by untrained-monkey filled factories?
*Tellingly, however, no-one who has claimed this has ever actually done so...
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Matthew T
art1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ärt)
n.
Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
The study of these activities.
The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).
arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
Artful contrivance; cunning.
Printing. Illustrative material.
Given this as definition of art, we need to start somewhere, I must say that much modern 'art' has only one intention, that is to cause a reaction in the observer, whether it is shock, disgust, amusement etc etc I don't really see this as art. I see art, or a piece of art, as something that is or is trying to be 'representative' of something, whether it be a image, sound, or feeling, and not be something is intended simply to cause a reaction. I would rather classify these things as entertainment or attractions, but not art.
I guess this is one of those deeply subjective topics so no chance of an consensus on this.
Matthew
PS I appreciate quite a lot of modern art, but would say that a large proportion of it is rubbish.
n.
Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
The study of these activities.
The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: “Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice” (Joyce Carol Oates).
arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
Artful contrivance; cunning.
Printing. Illustrative material.
Given this as definition of art, we need to start somewhere, I must say that much modern 'art' has only one intention, that is to cause a reaction in the observer, whether it is shock, disgust, amusement etc etc I don't really see this as art. I see art, or a piece of art, as something that is or is trying to be 'representative' of something, whether it be a image, sound, or feeling, and not be something is intended simply to cause a reaction. I would rather classify these things as entertainment or attractions, but not art.
I guess this is one of those deeply subjective topics so no chance of an consensus on this.
Matthew
PS I appreciate quite a lot of modern art, but would say that a large proportion of it is rubbish.
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Matthew T:
I must say that much modern 'art' has only one intention, that is to cause a reaction in the observer, whether it is shock, disgust, amusement etc etc I don't really see this as art. I see art, or a piece of art, as something that is or is trying to be 'representative' of something, whether it be a image, sound, or feeling, and not be something is intended simply to cause a reaction. I would rather classify these things as entertainment or attractions, but not art.
I guess this is one of those deeply subjective topics so no chance of an consensus on this.
Good art for me is something which dissolves the barrier between myself and the world - the awareness of my skin as the point where I end and the rest of the world begins. A good piece involves me and removes my sense of me at the same time. It's diffcult to describe.
Matthew T
No chance of a consensus on this? Please link me to a single thread on this forum where I can find a consensus on anything and I will buy you a drink of your choice when I get to England.
Deane
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Shayman
quote:I have more than a few personal clichés to offer.
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
Modern art is not art. It is a worthless commercial product looking for a deluded owner.
Nothing has value until someone wants it.
If you can borrow the money to open a gallery you can meet many deluded people quite effortlessly.
Art is the absolute prooof that time travels backwards.
Cave paintings leave modern art for dead. Both are done in the dark.
I know what I like... But it takes imagination, talent and skill well beyond the norm.
Art students are like many other students. But fewer of them have any real talent and almost all want an easy life.
Great artists aren't discovered. Their art was there all the time.
"Difficult art" doesn't exist. Except in the minds of the lazy, deluded dullards who produced it. And the lazy individuals who can make a quick buck out of it. The latter are far more important than the former since the former are completely disposable and just as easily forgotten.
Modern "art" is an oxymoron.
A modern "art" gallery is an oxymoron.
A "hidden" talent for art is an oxymoron.
Modern art could be produced in a factory by untrained chimps. And often is.
A modern artist is an unemployed person with a hobby.
Modern Art "experts" are experts only at self-delusion and deluding the naive. If they weren't doing this they would probably be involved in cult religion or UFO watching or futures markets.
Real art is easily recognisable by all who see it.
Recognising real art requires no coaching, no teaching, no classes, no lessons, no qualifications, no study, no experts and absolutely no special insight.
Recognising real art is not a gift. It is a normal human trait.
Nobody argues about real art. They are too busy admiring it.
Nobody needs to turn their head sideways to look at real art.
Many modern painters were also "scribblers" and "scrubbers" when they were little kids. Physical maturity brought no improvement in their skills, dexterity or hand-to-eye coordination. This may, or may not, affect their career.
A great artist doesn't need luck. He was born with it.
A complete myth can still lead to a successful career.
Frequent users of the word "philistine" should seek professional medical help.
BS
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Kevin-W
quote:Originally posted by Nime:
I have more than a few personal clichés to offer.
An artist is someone who very obviously can draw or paint better than a non-artist. Anything else is just delusion.
Modern art is not art. It is a worthless commercial product looking for a deluded owner.
Nothing has value until someone wants it.
If you can borrow the money to open a gallery you can meet many deluded people quite effortlessly.
Art is the absolute prooof that time travels backwards.
Cave paintings leave modern art for dead. Both are done in the dark.
I know what I like... But it takes imagination, talent and skill well beyond the norm.
Art students are like many other students. But fewer of them have any real talent and almost all want an easy life.
Great artists aren't discovered. Their art was there all the time.
"Difficult art" doesn't exist. Except in the minds of the lazy, deluded dullards who produced it. And the lazy individuals who can make a quick buck out of it. The latter are far more important than the former since the former are completely disposable and just as easily forgotten.
Modern "art" is an oxymoron.
A modern "art" gallery is an oxymoron.
A "hidden" talent for art is an oxymoron.
Modern art could be produced in a factory by untrained chimps. And often is.
A modern artist is an unemployed person with a hobby.
Modern Art "experts" are experts only at self-delusion and deluding the naive. If they weren't doing this they would probably be involved in cult religion or UFO watching or futures markets.
Real art is easily recognisable by all who see it.
Recognising real art requires no coaching, no teaching, no classes, no lessons, no qualifications, no study, no experts and absolutely no special insight.
Recognising real art is not a gift. It is a normal human trait.
Nobody argues about real art. They are too busy admiring it.
Nobody needs to turn their head sideways to look at real art.
Many modern painters were also "scribblers" and "scrubbers" when they were little kids. Physical maturity brought no improvement in their skills, dexterity or hand-to-eye coordination. This may, or may not, affect their career.
A great artist doesn't need luck. He was born with it.
A complete myth can still lead to a successful career.
Frequent users of the word "philistine" should seek professional medical help.
What a load of tripe! Or are you merely beingprovocative (I can't be arsed to work it out).
When you say "Modern Art" do you mean art of the early/mid 20th entury or do you mean contemporary (ie 1980s onwards)?
Modern Art is a term which encompasses masters such as Matisse, Duchamp, Pollock, Kandinsky, Malevich, Leger, Braque, Mondrian, Klee, Ernst and Bacon. The greatest of all modern artists is of course Picasso, who may just about be the most naturally gifted painter who has ever lived. To dismiss him out of hand is not just philistine, it is positively cretinous.
Contemporaty art is more problematical, largely because it rarely seems to exist without an explanatory text (and there are fewer more depressing phrases than "video installation") and seems to have been lurching rom crisis to crisis.
I studied at the Coutauld Institute in London (one of the best places in the world to study asrt history), as well as UCL, and one of the things I learned is that one has to be taught how to look at art before one can fully appreciateit. Not a fashionable thing to say, but only a lazy, deluded dullard would deny it. "Real" art is NOT immediately recognisable by all who see it, because not everyone has been taught to look or to see.
I don't think you'd know "real" art if it ran you down on the motorway.
Are you the sort of oaf who says "I don't know much about art but know what I like" by chance? Got a nice little collection of Tretchikoffs, Lowrys and Vetrianos?
Engage brain before speaking, please!
K
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Deane F
quote:Originally posted by Kevin-W:
Contemporaty art is more problematical, largely because it rarely seems to exist without an explanatory text
I studied at the Coutauld Institute in London (one of the best places in the world to study asrt history), as well as UCL, and one of the things I learned is that one has to be taught how to look at art before one can fully appreciateit. Not a fashionable thing to say, but only a lazy, deluded dullard would deny it. "Real" art is NOT immediately recognisable by all who see it, because not everyone has been taught to look or to see.
It is certainly the case that until I learned to draw as a young adult (through Betty Edwards book, "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain") I had no idea how to look or see. I was pleased with myself that I actually could draw but soon found I had no burning desire to do so. But it changed the way I saw art forever and really did change my life. I grew up dismissing Picasso but as an adult I now think he is one of the greatest artists who ever lived.
I used to think that I liked Matisse's line but not his colour - but ever since it was explained to me (over the course of an hour) how Matisse used colour instead of line to bring perspective into a particular painting I have absolutely loved his use of colour.
I think it was Kurt Vonnegut's character Bluebeard, in the novel of the same name, who said that if you want to know what a good painting is then look at a million paintings.
I'm possibly up to number five or six thousand...
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Martin Payne
quote:Originally posted by Nime:
When in fact he's only a taxi drover.
Is that like a shepherd with a flock of taxis?
cheers, Martin
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Nime
No, I was bullshitting a load of old tripe while being deliberately provocative. I'm glad it didn't go completely unnoticed. (He has his followers here baa, baa)
Picasso was the beginning of the end of real art as far as I'm concerned. A good draughtsman in his early years but lost it later when he took a leap of faith to the dark side.
Why am I not allowed to hold a personal opinion on art without personal attacks on my attitudes?
Sir Mick Thrust wouldn't agree with Steve's politics and vica versa. Which of them is wrong? Which of them is denied their opinion? Which is a philistine? Which is uninformed? Which is talking a load of tripe? Which is being provocative?
Picasso was the beginning of the end of real art as far as I'm concerned. A good draughtsman in his early years but lost it later when he took a leap of faith to the dark side.
Why am I not allowed to hold a personal opinion on art without personal attacks on my attitudes?
Sir Mick Thrust wouldn't agree with Steve's politics and vica versa. Which of them is wrong? Which of them is denied their opinion? Which is a philistine? Which is uninformed? Which is talking a load of tripe? Which is being provocative?
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by MichaelC
Simple really. Art is in the eye of the beholder.
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It just happens that some people have no sense or taste
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It just happens that some people have no sense or taste
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by BigH47
quote:one of the things I learned is that one has to be taught how to look at art before one can fully appreciateit.
Translation I was brain washed into thinking their way.
Art should need no explaining. Unless of course you are trying to get shed loads of cash out of someone. IMHO
H
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Nime
quote:Originally posted by BigH47:quote:one of the things I learned is that one has to be taught how to look at art before one can fully appreciateit.
Translation I was brain washed into thinking their way.
Art should need no explaining. Unless of course you are trying to get shed loads of cash out of someone. IMHO
H
Posted on: 20 September 2005 by Deane F
I have had the privilege of knowing a few very good artists and absolutely without exception they are thinkers and philosophers first and practitioners in a medium second.
Every single one of them not only had or has something to say but has thought it through more honestly and deeply than I ever thought anything through.
After they went through that process they laid it down in the way their talent moved them and put it in front of every tom, dick and harry who passed by.
I am a better man for knowing them all but I doubt I made all that much difference to their lives.
Every single one of them not only had or has something to say but has thought it through more honestly and deeply than I ever thought anything through.
After they went through that process they laid it down in the way their talent moved them and put it in front of every tom, dick and harry who passed by.
I am a better man for knowing them all but I doubt I made all that much difference to their lives.