Naim DAC - when????

Dear Jack,

It might still be a question of "if" rather than when Naim decide to make a DAC.

ATB from George

Dear George,

If this is the case, I think that they are shooting themselves in the foot in the long term. They simply must release one, at some point in the nearish future. Not releasing one would be a similar move to having ignored the CD format entirely. But eventually CDs will die out and downloads will take over.

As I understand it, it took them a long time to release a CD player, so perhaps they are just waiting for the right time to achieve with a standalone DAC the level they feel deserves the NAIM logo?

Having said all this, I have just listened through Radiohead - Hail to the Thieves and it sounded wonderful, so perhaps CD will do for now...

Cheers
Jack

There has been a lot of debate on this over in the Distributed Audio Section.

Fender (Strat)

Why wait for a Naim DAC when so many are available from other manufacturers (and one that I can vouch for as absolutely first rate based on personal experience)? Unless you place higher priority on loyalty to a particular brand than on the enjoyment of your music, there is no point whatsoever in waiting.

As someone who owned a CD5 some years ago, I can assure you that you are in a position to switch to a computer audio solution at little or no additional cost (again involving a particular DAC) that would absolutely eat your current system alive in terms of sound quality.

I would love to be in your position and be aware of the computer audio options available instead of upgrading through the Naim (or any other) CD player range. I would have saved myself a pile of money.

quote:

Why wait for a Naim DAC when so many are available from other manufacturers

Because it'll be worth the wait - no point in considering other manufacturers, it'll just unbalance the system. Also at the moment most music servers are built around obsolete hard disk technology. Why rush in to things.

Still, Jack has found has found CD is fine - he even said it made Radiohead sound wonderful - so it must be quite miraculous. Seriously, Jack is enjoying his music according to his post - so he has no need for Computer Audio IMHO and will save himself a pile of money by just staying with CD.

Having heard one of the touted Computer Audio systems against the CD5i, I preferred the CD5i - so it is all opinion.

ATB Rotf

I think its better to save up for a decent CD-player for your 52.

Dear All,

Thanks for your responses.

I'm a professional musician and I'll be releasing several recordings over the next few years. I know from the inside that the recording industry is really moving towards downloads (not that I need to tell any of you that!). Sadly from my point of view, no packaging and hard product is something that will mean that the consumer is actually getting less for their money and I will have less opportunity to make an impact with the booklet and packaging. The sale of CDs is going to gradually die out in the same way that records became a minority format.

So although I am enjoying my CD player, I know that it's a format with a finite life.

Perhaps another move for audio companies is to include digital-in connections on their high end CD equipment allowing people to plug their digital source (computer or squeezebox etc) into the CD players DAC. It would be a CD player that the consumer obviously likes the sound of so would probably do the DAC job quite well as well. Is this a rubbish idea?

If Naim made a high end CD player with that ability, I'd be very tempted to buy one as it'd be much more future proof.

A little while ago I took the 1st edit of my next CD to my local dealer and listened on a CDS3,552,B&W801,NAP300 setup. Bloody hell just like being back in the studio... I could even tell what I was thinking at certain moments during the time of recording!

I am also getting seriously alarmed at how other peoples systems sound, comments like "gosh I think that the balance on your recording is a bit piano heavy." Sure enough, on their (ahem.... B&O) hifi the piano sounds like it's 10 feet infront of the violin! God only knows what reviewers systems sound like...

Anyway, enough of my sunday afternoon musings...

All best
Jack

quote:

I'm now settled very nicely with my system (52/52PS,CD5,FlatCap,B&W805S)

I'd recommend you to look out for a power amp to make those 805 play

whoops! that must be where my cd replay is going wrong... I have a Nap 250...

Jack

Even if musical downloads become dominant, you will be able to burn the downloads to CD and enjoy a decent CD player for quite a while yet.

I guess these things will happen same as downloads for books has now made printed books obsolete or .....

Do you have a myspace site where we can listen to samples of your music.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by jackliebling:
So although I am enjoying my CD player, I know that it's a format with a finite life.

It certainly is - one look at the explosion in the number of CDS3s available for sale second hand at the moment (there are currently 5 for sale on a popular second hand North American website, and all at prices well below 50% of RRP) should convince anyone of that. And when one factors in the inferiority of the format(IMV anyway) in terms of both sound quality and convenience compared to some of the computer audio solutions out there that are available at a fraction of the price of the high end CDPs, it does not require a great deal of foresight to conclude that it is essentially an obsolete technology.

Vinyl can at least compete with newer formats on the basis of sound quality, but CD players have no advantages as far as I can see and those that continue to believe that they have a future are living in a fools' paradise.

It is not for any of us to advise Naim on their business strategy but if they continue to rely on trying to engineer better performance out of their CD player range while ignoring the superior and cheaper solutions being demanded by the market place, they will simply suffer the fate normally dictated by the forces of supply and demand.

Jack

quote:

I am also getting seriously alarmed at how other peoples systems sound, comments like "gosh I think that the balance on your recording is a bit piano heavy." Sure enough, on their (ahem.... B&O) hifi the piano sounds like it's 10 feet infront of the violin! God only knows what reviewers systems sound like...

That is interesting - you go to all that trouble to make your recording sound the best you can, but you can't control what people listen to it on. Never thought of that really, but it is definitely true.

As you imply, the CDS3 is a fine player and if, as Michael helpfully implies, it is available at half price then a bargain awaits.

I'd wait until solid state storage was the norm before spending cash of computer audio. The Wadia route looks the best approach to me, but there's no hurry. Downloads are no worry as it is easy to burn these to CD.

I'd definitely wait for the Naim DAC if that is the way you want to go because even if you decide on one of the cheaper DACs, you'll be able to pick them up at give away prices when the Naim model is available. If you are in the Mood for buying one of these now then there is good one around for around £100 or so.

ATB Rotf

Dear All,

Thanks for your responses! I feel some pride for starting a thread which people are actually interested enough to respond to and have a good discussion!

I know that burning a digital download to CD is convenient, but I can't help thinking that the process of burning a CD, probably on a £40 cd/dvd-burner onto a 30p disc (using Windows... ahem, we all know how good that is), will add a lot of crap onto the disc, surely there will be all sorts of jitter and errors etc, so there will be no way of having a very good quality burn. Plus, from a convenience factor, I find it really difficult to find home-burnt cds in my storage when there is no proper labeling/fonts and graphics to recognise the disc by. To me, this is only a makeshift solution. I really don't think that anyone really think that they can put a cd that they burnt on their sony vaio onto a £14000 CD player and expect the best performance!

ROTF, my website is w w w. j a c k l i e b e c k . c o m (sorry, don't want this appearing on google!
The whole different sound on different system thing causes me sleepless nights, honestly. I hate it when people criticise the sound quality of my stuff, we really try to get it right in the studio and mastering... Usually, I have difficulty not suggesting that these critics sit between the two speakers instead of side on, or try removing the huge sofa that is infront of one of the speakers!! I had a good chat with a reviewer who writes for the Gramophone, Times and reviews for Radio3, he said that he mainly uses headphones, this seems sensible, I hope the rest of them do too! He also said that he couldn't give a toss about sound quality and only needs to hear what the musician is doing...

I have also had a chat during a session with an engineer about sound quality and mentioned how some people even like to have separate electrical spurs put in at home. He jauntily pointed down to the skirting board and said, well this DAT machine over here is plugged into a multiplug with that fridge over there... Oh well, losing battle...

Good night (GMT...)

Jack

I would expect to see active speakers with a built in DAC long before any stand alone units....

Just seems the way the market is headed....

I dunno about anyone else but i'd buy 'em !

quote:

I would expect to see active speakers with a built in DAC

I would hope if Naim ever made such things they'd sound much better than the Meridian or AVI ones I heard at the Bristol show. I guess we'll just have to wait and see ....

I'm confident they would be

quote:

It is not for any of us to advise Naim on their business strategy but if they continue to rely on trying to engineer better performance out of their CD player range while ignoring the superior and cheaper solutions being demanded by the market place, they will simply suffer the fate normally dictated by the forces of supply and demand.

Michael, did you miss the SUPERNAIT? oh and the HDX,IP enabled amplifers,ip enabled tuners lets see what follows.
Why not improve our cd players they are also very popular and important products which clearly to us outperform many of the low end streaming laptop/dac products.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:

quote:

It is not for any of us to advise Naim on their business strategy but if they continue to rely on trying to engineer better performance out of their CD player range while ignoring the superior and cheaper solutions being demanded by the market place, they will simply suffer the fate normally dictated by the forces of supply and demand.

Michael, did you miss the SUPERNAIT? oh and the HDX,IP enabled amplifers,ip enabled tuners lets see what follows.
Why not improve our cd players they are also very popular and important products which clearly to us outperform many of the low end streaming laptop/dac products.

I am moving away from spinning CD player. The best route would be solid state drive (no vibration issue, no mechanical/laser failures). You can rip CD using laptop or PC and transfer songs to the solid state drive via USB.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:

It is not for any of us to advise Naim on their business strategy but if they continue to rely on trying to engineer better performance out of their CD player range while ignoring the superior and cheaper solutions being demanded by the market place, they will simply suffer the fate normally dictated by the forces of supply and demand.

Mike, I think Naims current product release shows that they are aware of the issues you've written about:

Superline-maximize vinyl replay

Naimnet Servers, amps, pre-amps

HDX-rip your CD collection now, ability to download to an external NAS and play through the HDX. Just need more hi-res format to be available.

Who knows whats down the line, a DAC, digital pre-amps/DAC and in what order they will choose to release.

I will say if I was a Bentley owner and loved one of those Naim systems, then I'd pretty much want to outfit my home with the equipment and the home automation, music stuff is big business.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul Stephenson:
Why not improve our cd players they are also very popular and important products which clearly to us outperform many of the low end streaming laptop/dac products.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuan:
I am moving away from spinning CD player. The best route would be solid state drive (no vibration issue, no mechanical/laser failures). You can rip CD using laptop or PC and transfer songs to the solid state drive via USB.

This is what I (and, based on what I am seeing in the second hand market and reading in this and other forums, an increasing number of other people) have been doing for the past 3 months or so (albeit using hard drive technology) and it has been a revelation in terms of sound quality and convenience. I'm not saying that all computer audio solutions can presently beat high end CDPs in terms of sound quality, but I don't think that I am deaf and, based on my personal experience, there definitely are DAC based setups that can compete with and beat some of the best CDPs out there. It can only be a matter of time before these become more commonplace. And with an increasingly computer savvy generation of consumers being the target market for hifi companies, computer/DAC setups will no longer be as intimidating as they now are to many people.

There many historical examples of companies that have died as a result of failure to adapt to fundamental shifts in technology and/or cultural attitudes (the current US auto industry might soon be cited in business school courses as a prime example of this phenomenon). Sometimes these shifts can be difficult to detect until it is too late and important ground has already been lost to other companies who have gained valuable technological knowledge or market presence by investing in the new business models or products being demanded by the marketplace. Let's hope that Naim does not become another name on that list (although they admittedly will probably remain an important player where high end amplification is concerned).

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Trotz:
There many historical examples of companies that have died as a result of failure to adapt to fundamental shifts in technology and or cultural attitudes.

SO - what exactly do you see the long-term future being?

Hard disks, solid state memory, internet downloads (what resolution?), internet storage, nano technology, quantum computer solutions, holographic storage, resurgence of sheet music and home performance?

Products are different to wish lists - they take preparation and preparation takes time.

Computing solutions are like a Lego set - everyone is able to micro-customise. Everyone (well those who enjoy this) can come up with their own "product". If you were to put your money where your mouth is - in 18 months time when you brought the finalised and fixed product to market you might well find you had a market of one. It's not easy pleasing everyone - in fact, it's not even worth trying.

Once in the area of "computer" music one has to identify a stable market and offer a product that will appeal to enough customers to justify its existence. The HDX satisfies a certain group of customers and offers exactly what they want.

Future products will, no doubt, answer other needs. The fact that a product does not exist at present does not speak to Naim's attitude toward the future - it reflects a traditional caution and the fact that we have, finally, learned to keep out mouths shut about things in development.

quote:

Originally posted by Tuan:
The best route would be solid state drive (no vibration issue, no mechanical/laser failures).

Agreed.

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:
Future products will, no doubt, answer other needs. The fact that a product does not exist at present does not speak to Naim's attitude toward the future - it reflects a traditional caution and the fact that we have, finally, learned to keep out mouths shut about things in development.

Caution is one thing, but I see no harm in giving some general guidance to the marketplace about future intentions where product development is concerned. This is not uncommon in the high tech industry where some of the most successful companies frequently outline their intentions over the short to medium term future. Not to do so can cause existing customers (and other stakeholders) to lose confidence and drift to other providers who they (maybe mistakenly) perceive as being more in touch with market trends.

quote:

sheet music

Now you're talking



- at least it is easier to follow than iTunes.

ATB Rotf

quote:

Originally posted by Adam Meredith:

SO - what exactly do you see the long-term future being?

i expect blu ray to tank, disks are too expensive and software has issues.

soft economy is going to put the brakes on a lot that might have happened.

standard cds are going to experience slow growth as their quality is improving by leaps and bounds.