What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...

Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009

I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.

As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.

Our roadshow kit was as follows:

CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's

Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.

Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.

Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.

The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).

I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.

What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.

The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.

Posted on: 11 November 2009 by winkyincanada

quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:
.....iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Do you think that is because you were using WAV format, or is iTunes a lost cause generally? It would be news to me. I think Apple lossless on iTunes sounds just fine. Might be my cloth ears, though.

Posted on: 11 November 2009 by PureHifi

Because of the limited support on alternative media players, apple lossless was not really an option...FYI - it was the latest version of iTunes.

It would be fair to say that the system we used is quite revealing of the source material.

And as much as I would have previously thought "bit for bit" storage was all that influenced the music, we now know there is much more to it.

Posted on: 11 November 2009 by Aleg

Thank you for your interesting and also very intriguing report. And interesting read.

Did you make BTW a ranking of the result of e.g. all the ripping software (not just best and worst)?

Do you know what ripping software Naim uses in its HDX?

Thanks again

-
aleg

Posted on: 11 November 2009 by Klout10

quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
Do you know what ripping software Naim uses in its HDX?

IIRC, Naim wrote the ripping software for the HDX themselves...

Regards,
Michel

Posted on: 11 November 2009 by garyi

I don't believe you when you say cheaper USB stick sounded worse. I am calling shenanigans on you. You are trying to make non audiophile things into audiophile things and no doubt next week will have a range of 'high quality' storage selling out your hifi shop.

Prove that a cheap USB stick sounded poorer, simply stating a few geeks got together and said it was so is not proof, its not evidence of any kind. YEs I saw your bit about not being able to explain. I cannot explain why these sorts of statements make me angry but they do.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by Joe Bibb

quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
I don't believe you when you say cheaper USB stick sounded worse. I am calling shenanigans on you. You are trying to make non audiophile things into audiophile things and no doubt next week will have a range of 'high quality' storage selling out your hifi shop.

I cannot explain why these sorts of statements make me angry but they do.

I'm calling Purehifi out on this as well. Having compared the rips on an HDX with PC and Mac using EAC and iTunes - there is no difference. Something that should be pretty easy to measure....where's the proof on this?

It doesn't detract from the one-box appeal but making unsubstantiated claims for one computer rip over another is dodgy ground without evidence. If anyone has made an iTunes rip sound like that described, they have stuffed up big time.

Joe

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by Joe Bibb

quote:
Originally posted by winkyincanada:
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:
.....iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Do you think that is because you were using WAV format, or is iTunes a lost cause generally? It would be news to me. I think Apple lossless on iTunes sounds just fine. Might be my cloth ears, though.

You don't have cloth ears, but I suspect you know that. The only thing with WAV is the tagging issue. It sounds the same as any other lossless format - or it would not be lossless.

Joe

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by scottyhammer

Too much lamb in NZ me reckons - some of the wool seems to have got stuck in the ears.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by james n

Interesting post pure hi-fi. I'm still curious about the superior rips of the HDX. From my own system, XLD rips are slightly better than iTunes rips but both XLD and EAC in secure mode should be the same as the HDX rips. I take it that the power supply upgrade on the HDD means the HDX is sensitive to noise coupled via its USB input.

I'm sure there will be some interesting posts coming up when the DAC is finally released

James

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by likesmusic

If you are claiming that different ripping engines produce different results, then it must be the case that there are differences between the WAV files. Do you have the technical competence to compare WAV files bit for bit? Did you do so? What did you learn?

Do you have the technical competence to compare the output of different media players for bit correctness? It must be an objective, measurable matter. Can you do it?

While on the subject of your technical competence, I can't help noticing you don't appear to be able to get data from a pc to the NAIM DAC without going via USB memory stick. What many of us want to know is how does it sound fed from a pc or streamer via s/pdif. Have you been able to do this? What did you hear?

And what on earth has the behaviour of USB cables and a Cambridge Dacmagic got to do with anything here?! Cambridge themselves do not advise using USB.

So much hocus pocus ...

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by likesmusic

Now there's an idea for a product .... remember those green pens that were supposed to improve the sound of a cd? Will there be a green pen that improves the sound of a usb-stick?

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by gary1 (US)

Purehifi,

Results seem to be consistent with those that I have experienced listening to the various file types, software, etc... at Promusica almost a year ago.

This obviously will spark some heated debate again as it always does.

From everything that I've read on digital playback there just seem to be many factors at play and many who work in this field state clearly that there are differences, but they cannot explain why they are there because logically they should not.

Seems as if Naim has come up with a combination that works well together to give an excellent result. They have always maintained that one can do this on their own, but as I've said for me it takes the guess work out of the equation.

I'd like to hear some comments on the CDX2-2/HDX/555PS vs. CDX2-2/HDX/DAC/555PS.

NAPSC on external HDD! Interesting

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by DHT

So in a nutshell, Naim is best!
It must have been wonderful back in the day when dealers could just spout this stuff and be believed without question.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by likesmusic

I don't read experiences like this as "NAIM is best". Far from it. I read it as the NAIM DAC is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the kind of USB stick you choose, and the NAIM HDX is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the power supply in an external HDD. And if bit-identical files lead to different playback results then it is pretty much hopeless. Good arguments for buying neither product, or at least using them in those configurations.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by scottyhammer

Back to the old ideal which has never let me down.....get a good dealer who will let you have a home dem to determine for yourself how good a new product is.....after all would you buy a new vehicle without a test drive ?
so i will wait patiently and do the above where the dac will be in a 3 way shootout with 2 other well known dacs.
Scotty

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by David Dever

quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
I don't read experiences like this as "NAIM is best". Far from it. I read it as the NAIM DAC is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the kind of USB stick you choose, and the NAIM HDX is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the power supply in an external HDD. And if bit-identical files lead to different playback results then it is pretty much hopeless. Good arguments for buying neither product, or at least using them in those configurations.

Wrong side of the bed today?

The remark about using an external DC power supply with the USB drive makes sense inasmuch as it directly affects the manner in which the USB chipset operates (self- vs. bus-powered), so, no, not voodoo and pretty sound from a technical perspective.

As for rip quality–if it didn't make a difference, why are quite a few people hearing said difference? Is it a plague of mass insanity, or might there be a (rational) technical reason why this seems to be the case???

This industry is littered with the carcasses of those who have both rightly and wrongly found differences where there is none–or plausible reasons why....

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by js

quote:
Originally posted by gary1 (US):
Purehifi,

Results seem to be consistent with those that I have experienced listening to the various file types, software, etc... at Promusica almost a year ago.

This obviously will spark some heated debate again as it always does.

From everything that I've read on digital playback there just seem to be many factors at play and many who work in this field state clearly that there are differences, but they cannot explain why they are there because logically they should not.

Seems as if Naim has come up with a combination that works well together to give an excellent result. They have always maintained that one can do this on their own, but as I've said for me it takes the guess work out of the equation.

I'd like to hear some comments on the CDX2-2/HDX/555PS vs. CDX2-2/HDX/DAC/555PS.

NAPSC on external HDD! Interesting

I wont add to this debate but simply state that we don't sell hard drives or sticks and I doubt Pure HiFi will either. Simply recommend some that he's taken the trouble to compare. At worst he'll sell some cables as a convenience for a few quid that again wont be exclusive.

You know, because computer hardware is so profitable and exclusive for independants.

Please take the time to form a viable insult before posting because that one is looking mighty foolish.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by js

quote:
Originally posted by David Dever:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by likesmusic:
I don't read experiences like this as "NAIM is best". Far from it. I read it as the NAIM DAC is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the kind of USB stick you choose, and the NAIM HDX is absurdly and disastrously sensitive to the power supply in an external HDD. And if bit-identical files lead to different playback results then it is pretty much hopeless. Good arguments for buying neither product, or at least using them in those configurations.

Wrong side of the bed today?

QUOTE]The other side of his bed is pushed up against the wall.

Hearing less is more.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by SC

NAPSC on external HDDs...?! What's next...!?

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by likesmusic

david dever: Are you suggesting that a USB drive will read a file differently depending on it's power supply?

How have you measured this?

You would bring the computer industry to a standstill if you could demonstrate it.

If, on the other hand, there is some electrical interacion between an HDD and an HDX that affects the way the HDX sounds, then is this acceptable in such an expensive product? Why use such a configuration?

If someone claims there is a difference between rips, the first thing to test is the rips themselves. Are they in fact bit-identical. If they aren't, then there's your answer; at least one of the ripping engines was duff, or it was used incorrectly. This was why I asked the O/P if they had the technical competence to do so, before they made sweeping statements. If the rips are demonstrably bit-identical, yet a listener still claims to hear a difference, the next thing to test is the listener - can he reliably identify the difference under double blind conditions? Otherwise, heaven forbid, he might just be a NAIM dealer favouring products he sells.

I believe you can use foobar to do both a bit comparison of two audio files, and set up a double-blind listening test. Any NAIM dealers prepared to put their ears to a public test?

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by js

Sure but your very good at demanding tests and results while offering nothing but opinion and odd perspective. Please join in and we can see what both of us can and can't hear. I'll compare Itunes to an HDX with my eyes closed.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by scottyhammer

hang on a minute your the dealer with the gear why not have an open evening to try all of the options?

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by js

We do these for folks all the time and you only need a Uniti hear it. All are welcome and in any #s they like. I'm out as this is not my thread and I'm getting into the debate. Rips and drives are sore spots with me due to past threads and I see the same nonsense starting up with another dealer. I've accepted all challenges in the past. Many here have changed ripping engines. Drives are different. Not as much as Itunes VS DBpoweramp or an HDX but it pretty obvious. We should be past this. I'll do a proper DB vs HDX comparison and get back at some point. I found them pretty similar after a good DB setup but I wasn't being extremely critical and listening via my computer through moderate associated kit. Itunes vs DB was bloody obvious in the same setup. Problem with DB and EAC is setup and if you get it wrong, they're not special as I found when I lost my settings in an early trial of EAC. Wondered what the fuss was. I had been using Wavelab as I didn't care for Itunes without needing to compare it to anything.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by tonym

quote:
Originally posted by munch:
Here we go again.Same old same old.
Just hope Naim can get this DAC out by the end of this year.
It might go some way to putting this stuff to bed at last.
Stu

Roll on Stu...

When us customers get our grubby little hands on the new DAC I think there'll be some completely different debates.

Posted on: 12 November 2009 by scottyhammer

Thought so js........anyways so much easier to compare and fiddle around at home in own system.
good day