What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...

Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009

I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.

As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.

Our roadshow kit was as follows:

CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's

Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.

Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.

Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.

The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).

I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.

What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.

The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by Aleg
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:
quote:
Originally posted by Aleg:
quote:
Originally posted by Eloise:
On a completely different note ... has anyone tried using MPD on a Linux system? So far I'm getting quite good results in my trials though do have an issue with MetaData.
Eloise


I run mpd about 10 hours a day Winker from my PCH (a Linux system).
For a client I use Minion or mPod or iPodMp.

What kind of problem do you have with MetaData?

-
aleg

Instead of getting artist names (using AAC files to test) I get the "composer" field instead of the "Artist" field - files were created in iTunes. I need to copy some AIFF and ALAC files across to the drive to test these I guess.

I'd actually say that an MPD setup running on a fanless motherboard would be very close to your desire of a "streamer" which uses FileSharing rather than UPnP or similar - certainly without heading in the direction of a HDX or similar. MPD is looking very hopeful for me as a good setup. Currently it's running on an laptop for test purposes - but if I can get somewhere was thinking of looking at a Mini-ITX Atom board or similar.


I don't have this problem of swapping of metadata elements. I listen classical music, so artis and composer are different all the time. I use flac only and these are tagged with flac-tags.

You can check the mpd database quite easily since it is just a flat text file, with labels.
quote:
Title: Handel - Rinaldo: Lascia ch'io pianga (Almirena)
Track: 1
Composer: Händel
Album: The Art of Cecilia Bartoli
Genre: Opera
Date: 2002
Artist: Cecilia Bartoli


Is it indeed wrongly labeled?
If so then I would suspect the audio file is wrongly tagged?!

You could use MP3tag to check the values of the tags and type of tags attached to your audio files.

If the audiofile is correctly tagged and the database is still wrongly labeled, then I might suspect wrong tag names or in the mpd.conf file the variable "metadata_to_use" does not contain all the required tags for your mpd-client.

What do you use as a client?
Might it be that it is not displayed correctly?
Checking with Minion, all my metadata is displayed correctly.

---
Edit:
What operating system do you use?
Reading the Install page of mpd not all mpd for every OS contain AAC-support by default!
---

Sorry if we digress to much from the purpose of the thread.

-
aleg
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by PureHifi
quote:
Originally posted by james n:

I can understand it with CDR's - its a totally different electromechanical process to extract the data off the CD.

Memory sticks - were both formatted the same - any other files on them. The different size sticks, does this mean more processor overhead when reading them - leading to more power supply loading, EMI within the player ?

James


I am sure that once we understand the "why" with digital storage, as we now understand the "why" of CD's, it will be just as excepted. Believe me when I say..."I wish it wasn't the case..." but there you are.

Next on our hit list is to compare playback from network storage and USB connected...should be interesting.

To answer your question on the sticks...they were both freshly formatted (full not quick) as FAT32 file system and only had the one tune on them...Leonard Cohen - In My Secret Life, which was a WAV rip from our NS01 NaimNet server. The Toshiba stick was 2GB and the LaCie 4GB, we also have tried out an ADATA and DSE branded sticks, still the LaCie is a clear winner.

Disclaimer...we don't sell memory sticks and have no desire nor intention to do so.
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by garyi
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:
Just as a wee update on the memory stick variance I talked about in the original post...I am still curious as to why there was a difference. Maybe someone with the appropriate level of technical knowledge can answer the variables. From what I have been able to figure out so far not all computer memory is perfect and apparently the memory chips have a finite number of read/write functions. Also the memory does not in itself interface via USB but requires a controller process which is housed in the memory stick and is responsible in part for allocating where the data is written to the memory data blocks and presumably there is some other processes going on as well (info on this process is detailed in wikipedia for those keen enough to have a read).

Of course all this is really a bit over the top and it really is more than I need to know - I am not a computer tech, but I am curious and it seems just as valuable as knowing what brands of CDR's will sound good when copying a CD.

Today I carried out the same comparison of memory sticks using a Naim Uniti and the results were the same as on the DAC...somewhat of a surprise as I was not confident that the available resolution of the Uniti would show the difference compared to the DAC/555PS/282/Supercap/250.2/Ovators...but it was still very obvious that the LaCie iamaKEY 4GB stick played the same HDX ripped song with a lot more tune than on a 2GB Toshiba branded (TransMemory) stick, which sounded bland by comparison.

I know there are doubting thomas's who have not tried it and beleive there is no difference - but to me the results of writing the same files to different brands of CDR's and being able to hear the difference in playback on a CD Player (which seems to be a widely held result) is no different - it should all still be 1's and zero's - shouldn't it ;-)

I don't expect that DAC or HDX owners will be playing back thwack loads of Music from a USB memory stick BUT it does indicate that the storage of your music is a variable and for people wanting the best result they can get it is something that should be on their radar - we also tried an external HDD using it's supplied USB cable to our NS01 NaimNet server and found that changing out the std USB cable for a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB cable provided the same sort of improvement as our experiments with the Cambridge DACmagic product.


You heard a difference because you believe you heard a difference. You believe you heard a difference because you are to heavily ingrained. There is a threat out there, one of customers having more knowledge and you need to stay one step ahead.

I am still calling shenanigans on you, usb drives do not sound different. They are either able to deliver the data or they are not. End of.
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by js
And perhaps your beliefs guide you. All can try for themselves and discover what's important to them. My expectations would have guided me to believe all drives to sound the same when we first started using them only to be disappointed by the sound of some HiRes transfers. Not bad but definitely worse. We discovered the transfers were fine but the drives sounded different in use. I mentioned this long before Naim DAC talk began here and I still don't sell drives or PC cables. I also don't have much interest in comparing every drive out there though we almost always prefer a hard drive to a stick and I would have expected just the opposite for a few reasons. Vibration, power usage and connections.
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by PureHifi
quote:
Originally posted by garyi:
You heard a difference because you believe you heard a difference. You believe you heard a difference because you are to heavily ingrained. There is a threat out there, one of customers having more knowledge and you need to stay one step ahead.

I am still calling shenanigans on you, usb drives do not sound different. They are either able to deliver the data or they are not. End of.


Actually, it wasn't me doing the blind listen...and I stand by our results. We have no particular axe to grind, as I have always said we chose to report our findings purely to make people aware that there is more to the digital domain than meets the eye.

Now, slap me with the glove so that we can walk 10 paces and complete the challenge like gentlemen.. :-)
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by Jo Sharp
quote:
Originally posted by AMA:
quote:
I had noticed, but found it a bit contradictory to your exclamation of "That's why we want streamers."

Aleg, let me put my thoughts in a better way Smile

When I mean a true streamer I mean a device which has a built-in software to communicate with external NAS and push out a low jitter bitstream to S/PDIF. Logitech is not a true streamer in that sense as it requires a dedicated PC with dedicated software to be hooked up on the local network which I don't like.

I do believe that there is a market demand for the CHEAP true streamers: like Logitech SB3 but with a built-in software.
I want to pair it with future Naim DAC and use remote to browse music archives on my NAS drive without messing up with my laptop.

That's why I want a streamer Smile


I think you'll find that the new Squeezebox Touch can have an external HDD connected by USB, so no PC required (except to rip the CDs to the HDD in the first place)
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:


Actually, it wasn't me doing the blind listen...and I stand by our results. We have no particular axe to grind, as I have always said we chose to report our findings purely to make people aware that there is more to the digital domain than meets the eye.

Now, slap me with the glove so that we can walk 10 paces and complete the challenge like gentlemen.. :-)


If two competent USB drives sound different, then there must be something big-time wrong with the DAC - it is obviously being badly affected by at least one of the drives. It only reads data out of them. Have you checked with NAIM that they expect there might be a difference? Or is there more work to do on their USB input? Or is your DAC faulty? Does reformatting the drives make a difference?
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by PureHifi
quote:
Originally posted by likesmusic:
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:


Actually, it wasn't me doing the blind listen...and I stand by our results. We have no particular axe to grind, as I have always said we chose to report our findings purely to make people aware that there is more to the digital domain than meets the eye.

Now, slap me with the glove so that we can walk 10 paces and complete the challenge like gentlemen.. :-)


If two competent USB drives sound different, then there must be something big-time wrong with the DAC - it is obviously being badly affected by at least one of the drives. It only reads data out of them. Have you checked with NAIM that they expect there might be a difference? Or is there more work to do on their USB input? Or is your DAC faulty? Does reformatting the drives make a difference?


We have tried the same tests on the HDX, NS01, DAC and Unity...all with the same results.To cross check that the USB interface is something that is subject to performance differences, with something as seemingly nonsensical as the USB cable, we tested the Cambridge DACmagic with different USB cables - all sounded different..and there was no peice of naim equipment used ;-) not even the music file.

Is it really so hard to accept that we suddenly have a new frontier of things to get a handle on ?
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by Exiled Highlander
quote:
If two competent USB drives sound different, then there must be something big-time wrong with the DAC - it is obviously being badly affected by at least one of the drives
What a brilliant conclusion - you must be a research scientist!

Jim
Posted on: 24 November 2009 by goldfinch
for some reason bits are not only bits, unfortunately everything seems to matter in computer audio, Confused
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by likesmusic
One important thing about USB sticks is to make sure you store them vertically - if you ever let them point downwards, even for just a second, bits can leak out and get lost in your carpet.
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by DHT
Likesmusic don't be ridiculous, of course bits don't leak out ,it is just that dealers have 'special' hearing.
Oddly this always mean the most financially beneficial solution ( for them) 'sounds' the best.
Nature is wonderful isn't it!
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by PureHifi
quote:
Originally posted by goldfinch:
for some reason bits are not only bits, unfortunately everything seems to matter in computer audio, Confused


You are correct - I liken it to everyone having all the bits and peices to make their own CD player and trying to make it sound like a CD555 or a wadia or a Krell or a what ever...that in a lot of ways is what we have with ready access to computers, software & hardware, etc. We are all trying to get a great result.

But, I think that the process we are discussing here can be as complicated as the design path of any top CD player when seeking ultimate reproduction of the source material...there are things involved that mere mortals like me would not have an understanding of if they tried to explain. Take the nitty gritty of microphany for example, we all understand in broad terms what it is, but could we tutor the subject in a physics class ?

I do respect the skill that those people in white coats have and appreciate the quality of the end product. I don't need to know to the n'th degree how a CD555 does what it does, but with the tools now at most peoples disposal we can start to build our own personal digital ripping, digital storage and playback solutions to suit ourselves and maybe some are starting to see why the guys in the white coats are very special people indeed.
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by BigH47
Don't forget the silver USB sticks sound the best.
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by AMA
quote:
I think you'll find that the new Squeezebox Touch can have an external HDD connected by USB, so no PC required (except to rip the CDs to the HDD in the first place)

Jo Sharp, it's silently presumed that a noisy NAS drive should be out of the room which is difficult to implement over USB connection.

If HDD is a USB drive then I better connect it to the laptop on the table and use this combo instead of streamers which deliver more comfort than any streamer.

In this case you are wellcome to listen for PC fan and HDD fan along with your 50 K$ (or more?) supersilent audiophile equipment Confused
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by Joe Bibb
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:


I do respect the skill that those people in white coats have


Yes it seems we need more of those.

Funny how all other types of data doesn't seem to produce these spurious findings.....must be something very special about audio file "bits" compared to those other, less discerning bits that just keep the world's defence systems and commercial enterprises going.

I wonder if any of those stop to think "shit I'm being stored on an cheaper USB drive, I think I'll behave differently for a laugh".

You couldn't make it up....oh wait. Big Grin

Anyone reading this stuff would think they had to possess a white coat to get superb results...fortunately for everyone else there is reality.

Joe
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by scottyhammer
THEY ARE COMING TO TAKE YOU AWAY !! ....HA HA
THEYRE COMING TO TAKE YOU AWAY !! Big Grin
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by DHT
My 'bits' are highly trained.
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by likesmusic
quote:
Originally posted by PureHifi:

I do respect the skill that those people in white coats have and appreciate the quality of the end product.


If you truly had respect for the 'people in white coats' - by which I take it you mean the NAIM designers - then shouldn't you, as an admitted novice in the field of digital playback, take your findings up with them rather than broadcasting them to the world before the product is truly launched?

I am sure that the NAIM engineers had absolutely no intention of making the DAC sensitive to USB sticks, and will be disappointed if this turns out to be the case. Have they verified your findings? Have you given them the opportunity to account for them?

And do you think you should draw conclusions about NAIMs engineering from your observations about a Cambridge Audio Dacmagic?
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by js
Some good ones there. Smile The bits are intact. Something about getting accessed causing this. I can't explain it and wish it weren't so. At least being aware of it may aid to a fix for audio. Storage has buffers and controller circuits to access the DATA in a organized fashion. I agree that in theory, these should be seamless but my experience says something isn't.
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by winkyincanada
quote:
Originally posted by BigH47:
Don't forget the silver USB sticks sound the best.


Even better if you colour the edge of the stick with a (Naim) green marker!
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by Hook
quote:
Originally posted by js:
Some good ones there. Smile The bits are intact. Something about getting accessed causing this. I can't explain it and wish it weren't so. At least being aware of it may aid to a fix for audio. Storage has buffers and controller circuits to access the DATA in a organized fashion. I agree that in theory, these should be seamless but my experience says something isn't.


As a long-time computer guy (was doing Unix internals for a good stretch in the 80's), it causes me heartburn to hear that different USB sticks sound different.

Felt the same way when I first heard that higher quality USB cables made an audible difference.

Have for many years believed that bits are bits -- ones and zeroes and nothing more. Still believe that, as long as we are talking about data at rest. Unfortunately, data in motion has, at least in my experience, proven to be a different story.

For many years I resisted buying anything other than Monoprice cables. But I recently took a flyer on a $100 USB cable from Furutech.

Much to my suprise, I can hear a difference compared to the Monoprice cable it replaced. Maybe the Monoprice cable was broken (e.g., not up to spec in some subtle way). Doesn't really matter to me. All I know is that it sounds smoother, less grainy, less edgy, and particularly at higher volume levels. Have asked a couple of friends to listen as well. Both blindly picked the Furutech cable as sounding better. So go figure.

Based on this paradigm-shattering experience, and as much as I hate to say it, I have no trouble believing that there could be an audible difference between USB memory sticks. For starters, aren't they inexpensive, mass-produced commodity items. How can quality control be perfect?

Has anyone other than PureHiFi actually tried different USB sticks to see if they can hear any differences? Not to flame the fire, but IMHO, the dealer bashing would have a bit more credibility coming from someone who actually did some testing.

Thanks!

Hook
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by Exiled Highlander
Hook
quote:
Have for many years believed that bits are bits -- ones and zeroes and nothing more. Still believe that, as long as we are talking about data at rest. Unfortunately, data in motion has, at least in my experience, proven to be a different story.

You are henceforth banned from this forum!!

Many others apparently know that bits are just bits and they don't have to listen - as that is how the world is. Perfect sound forever....

Regards

Jim
Posted on: 25 November 2009 by Eloise
quote:
Originally posted by ghook2020:
Have for many years believed that bits are bits -- ones and zeroes and nothing more. Still believe that, as long as we are talking about data at rest. Unfortunately, data in motion has, at least in my experience, proven to be a different story.
[...]
Thanks!

Hook

I love that paragraph Hook - I might have to steel it sometime!

Eloise
Posted on: 26 November 2009 by likesmusic
The USB input on the Naim DAC is NOT a USB audio input - you can't connect a pc's usb output to it and 'play' what's coming out. When a USB stick is connected the DAC interrogates the file structure and reads the files found sequentially. So, it is invalid to make inferences about this completely different interface from the performance of another vendors USB DAC or cable.

Not that I have any difficulty believing that USB sticks 'could' sound different; but I do have difficulty believing that they should, or that NAIM would use them if that were the case.

For nearly two decades NAIM declined to make a DAC on the grounds that the s/pdif interface wasn't good enough, because it adversely affects the retrieved sound quality.

Is it now being suggested that after 18 years Naim have abandoned these high, uncompromising standards and introduced a DAC that is adversely affected by the variety of storage media employed? Especially when that is the sole source for the highest resolution material possible.