What we have learnt from the Naim DAC...

Posted by: PureHifi on 11 November 2009

I thought it was time that we posted a few tid-bits of our experience with the Ripping, storage and playback of music after our resent promotional event that formed a part of the New Zealand Naim roadshow.

As a Naim retailer we learned a lot from the New Zealand Naim distributor, Chris Murphy, and are finding the whole move to digital storage and playback very interesting...and a lot more involved than a lot of people might initially think.

Our roadshow kit was as follows:

CDX2 (latest with digital out)
HDX (used with digital out)
DAC (with and without a 555PS)
282/supercap, 250.2, Fraim/ Ovator S-600's

Apart from the obvious new speaker exploration we settled down to get to grips with the new CDX2 + DAC and experiment with the HDX a bit more. In particular we wanted to get a solid handle on the performance variations with ripping CD media and the storage and playback.

Ripping the software used does affect the final playback, Chris had files from the same CD Track ripped to WAV with several software packages (WMP, iTunes, EAC, DBpowerAmp, HDX, etc) and the outright winner was the HDX rip - iTunes sounded horrible - ragged & sibilant would best describe it.

Storing It became apparent that the storage medium also influences the audio performance. The simplest example was writing the same HDX ripped music file to different USB memory sticks and then playing them back via the USB input on the DAC - cheap memory sticks generally played back poorly compared to a higher priced stick from LaCie. Perhaps this reflects on Naim's choice of Hard Disk drives used in the HDX.

Playback Several things in the playback domain have cropped up recently for us, in both Naim's solutions and other brands that we stock. We have found, in terms of digital playback from PC laptops and MacBook, that the media player software has a huge impact on the music quality - WMP was poor but Winamp and Foobar were great by comparison (never got around to iTunes). The USB cable between a Cambridge DacMagic and our laptop was also a hugely variable item, we tried a range of normal looking USB cables (some with superior shielding and RF stoppers) and ran them against a Wireworld Ultraviolet USB1 cable, results were outstandingly in favour of the Wireworld item over all others tried. We could not try our Wireworld USB cable on the WD external HDD because of it's use of a mini USB connector but I am looking forward to testing it on a LaCie HDD that has the right USB connector.

The Western Digital 1TB external HDD feeding the HDX also benefited from a power supply upgrade, it might sound over the top but it made for a better result in the music (and was a good use for a spare NAPSC).

I can't explain in technical terms why a lot of these findings are the way they were, we judged everything on its sound merit and I am reporting our results.

What it highlighted most of all was the wonderful way that Naim's R & D has worked to make all those variables disappear for a customer in the HDX product - by providing Superior Ripping, storage and playback in one box.

The DAC is a wonderful device and will be a very successful product.
Posted on: 29 November 2009 by sq225917
Let's not forget that bit-perfect is essentially meaningless. In terms of audio all it means is not subject to signal content changing DSP. Even then you could make an argument for saying up-sampling still leaves a bit perfect signal, essentially it does as the discrete values within the signal remain unchnaged- of course your timing may be all to hell, but 'jitter' has nothing to do with bit-perfect(ness).


The ipod is limited to 16/44.1 because Apple choose it that way. The internal DAC chip is 24/96 capable in the latest hardware, classic, itouch, iphone, but the bit length and data rates simply aren't used. Hence the USB out being also limited to 16/44.1 on any Apple approved digital dock.

If Apple wanted to they could make 24/96 the industry standard tomorrow, they don't, they won't.

At the other end of the price scale to the Weiss of this world; John Westlake has just finished his new M-dac, one of the UK brands sub-contracted the design. Expect a £400 price tag for a 256x1 bit dac with Async USB, separate wired clock-lock, class A analogue pre-amp with optional 32 bit digital volume control and pretty much every input and output you can imagine bar firewire.


Should be interesting times ahead, especially as the 'connection option sou' starts to thin out into some well worn standards.
Posted on: 29 November 2009 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
quote:
Originally posted by PMR:
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Really, 10 pages , and no-one has learnt anything!!!
I quite agree.

It amazes me that no one (in particular the traders) have been bothered to test whether the streams (software, devices etc.) are bit perfect, bit transparent (New Weiss DAC202 supports this function) and no one has measured jitter or even alludes that this may well be the cause in most instances. USB's sound different? Measure it, show us the stats or we'll assume they sound the same. I'll be wondering whether the CD I bought has been stamped correctly next, or indeed, have Naim's studio masters been infected during the download. Talking about software, drivers, devices, and why you cannot account for the sound differences may as well be pseudo science, if you do not establish the above criteria. You do Naim no favours!

All just listen, and if you like the sound, buy the DAC. Don't worry about media, sticks and things, since these are all manicure compared to the varying quality of components used within the DAC. In the context of varing quality recordings (even each stamp) why would one worry or be concerned?

Regards,
Peter


Yes quite Peter, it seems every interesting post on these new products gets hi-jacked by intricate engineering arguments (when no-one really knows the exact truth of it all) and whether one blooming memory stick is better than the other. Ridiculous!

I trust it to my ears, and this is what I learnt after an extended (4-5 hour session) with this new equipment:-

1)The Ovators are extremely good, fantastic mid and natural bass, but I suspect they need space around them. Cabinets and build quality are fantastic, as I have mentioned somewhere before, if I can get them to work closer to walls (in my room) then they will probably oust the beloved NBL's.

2)The CD555/552/500 was used to start the session and, I guess, set the benchmark, then all the steps between until HDX/DAC/555PS/552/500 at the end, so the two systems were not A-B'd directly, but from what I heard (through, to me, the 'unfamiliar' Ovators) was there is hardly anything between them.

3) iPod through the DAC is probably as good as you will get in terms of quality from an iPod (wav file was used I believe), but to me it's still only a convenience thing. Naim push the fact that it enables your family / friends iPods to be hooked into your system, and yes that's great, but in all likelihood their iPod will contain compressed iTunes, not good really, is it? So I wouldn't go overboard about the iPod hook-up, as i do not with the memory stick. Both these inputs are great for convenience and sampling, but no-one is going to be using them as sources for the DAC on anything other than occasional times.

3) The CDX2-2 is worthwhile improvement over the original CDX2 (I owned one so I knew what that sounded like), this is aside from the Dig Out which has been included so it can be used as a transport. The CDX2-2 retains the 'verve' of the CDX2 but seemed to me to have 'cleaned up' it's act, it's now much closer to the CDS3, although the difference in 'voicing' still remains. Good improvement Naim, not sure how many will sell though. The CDX2-2 via the DAC was very good, I could see that being very satisfying for many, particularly if you want to keep loading CD's into a player.

4) The HDX was played without the DAC, then with, and with the 555PS moved appropriately between the two set-ups. This taught me, what I had always suspected (from last year) - the internal DAC in the HDX is very average, of course the 555PS makes a difference to the overall quality heard from the HDX, but IMO, the internal DAC on the HDX is average, I can't be more succinct than that, the external DAC makes a big difference to the HDX.

5) I recall that little snippets were given of what the power supply (555PS) brought to the party at each stage, but the biggest wow ( and that was from my wife as well, not only me) was when the 555PS was added to the HDX/DAC front end.

6) So what I have learnt, what most of us already know, is that the PS upgrade can substantially improve the sound coming out your speakers, this many of us experienced with the CDP range, but importantly IMO, it is because it does what it does with the analogue output stages. I have also learnt that the Naim DAC also presents as clean an output to the amplifiers as one would hope for, with the 555PS, akin to the mighty CD555 (note I am not saying which is better, only extended demoing in familiar systems to one's ears will tell you that). It will probably become the 'most want to have' product in the Naim range, because, again IMO, it will generally be perceived as getting somewhere close (if not equal!!) to the CD555, it will all depend on how you feed the signal to the DAC which will bring unending discussions and arguments in the not too distant future.

7) So, completely un-scientifically and in no way measured on a bench, my ears tell me the DAC coupled with a power supply is going to get you very good to top-end results, all depending on what you feed it with. That feed, my friends, will be for another day and another argument.

I will add one foot-note, the room that I heard this demo was, probably, one of the best i had come across, it wasn't completely dead, nor too lively, you could tell when people were just talking. The proportions were good, if not spacious and in all cases, the sounds emminating from the Ovators were just sublime.

I would also add that I haven't received my DAC as yet, these are my impressions from a session about a month ago!!!

That all makes perfect in a Naim system, and within its usual expected spend. It's up to people to decide whether the final result is worth the cost, or indeed, do they need to look outside the box if their only concern is the quality of reply. In either case this is a worthwhile move in capturing Naim users from Benchmark, Lavry and Weiss, whilst having a solution equally valuable for any budding audiophile. Just need to make sure that after spending £15,000 that the PC, MAC, USB stick and rusty old CD transport doesn't sound like £200 when not using the HDX.
Posted on: 29 November 2009 by PMR
quote:
Originally posted by AllenB:
Peter

Did you really have to quote me, it's rather a long quote! Winker

It's why I took effort to make sure I did not say the HDX/DAC/555PS is better or worse than the CD555, and also, the feed to a DAC (with added PS or not) will determine what level you reach. I guess the message was that the new DAC seems good enough to attain very high comparative levels, just depends what's used as the feed (and by that I certainly do not mean just a Naim transport or HDX).

It's notable that no computer source was mentioned (nor tried) and I believe Naim have purposely kept it so. I would speculate that Naim are demoing so that people get a feel for it's capability and establish their own early benchmarks, importantly, in the context of a Naim system.

The computer sources and various other feeds will come later when the unit is out there in peoples homes. Dealers might also be given a freer rein to demo it with other sources as well. Whichever way you look at it, it looks like Naim have something that will sell and sell. Good for them!
Sorry, had a quote moment with the brackets. I should know better!

Correction! Blimey, spelt no wrong.

sq225917
Yes, we know the differences between 'bit perfect', 'bit transparent' and 'jitter' etc., it just needs to be measured so we at least understand the reason for the differences.

Peter
Posted on: 29 November 2009 by js
Not to worry. When used with a cheap Denen DVD player and no supply it was VERY Winkercompetitive with anything in that price range. Listen when you get the chance and decide.

There is so much variance and controversy in computer sources that it's very understandable that they don't dem that into the mix. The Ipod touch will be as good or better than standard computer tos out when used as streamer. It can be bettered with a bit of work and kit but it's surprising. As Allen mentioned, not as good as some other sources but it's relative. The net result in a vacuum is quite pleasing.